Dubbing Technique Question

[pmjasper]

I just wanted to get a little more info on the standard twist dubbing technique;

As I dub my nymphs, I usually wax a section of thread approximately two inches long, I take a small to medium sized pinch of dubbing, lay it out evenly across the two inch waxed section of thread and twist the dubbing between my thumb and pointer finger in a clockwise manner while holding the thread tight and to not twist with the dubbing. I then wrap my two inch section of dubbed thread around the shank of the hook, building up the body. I will continue with my two inch waxed pieces of thread and dubbing until the body is completed. Then I pick out some of the dubbing to give the nymph a buggy look. My only concern is that sometimes the dubbing appears to be a little loose and if I pick out a bit on the right side of the hook, the dubbing on the left side wants to be pulled into the fly as well. I usually even out the picked dubbing, so that both sides are evenly distributed but I just wnat to make sure that I'm not missing something with my dubbing technique. Any insight would be appreciated. I do realize that there are other dubbing techniques (dubbing brush, dubbing loop) but I prefer the twist method and would prefer to hone my skills there. Thank you.

[Night Angler]

pm..

when doing my roo bugs.. I cant use a dubbing loop the hiar is just to thin.

so I do the "twist on the thread" like what you are talking about..
after twist the fur on and I begin to wrap up the shank, about every 3-5 wrap I twist the dubbing again to keep it tight.

[alanb_ct]

Here's a few dubbing comments/tips, not really specific to your form or ability:

• Most people use way too much, like NightAngler says.
• Most people try to apply it too heavily in one pass. It is far better to grab a little at a time, just a few strands, and build up the bulk that way.
• When you pull the fibers from the package, they tend to be oriented at a right angle to the thread, and that's good for applying them. If you try to dub them in-line or parallel to the thread they may come off.
• Twist only in one direction as you said.
• It is very difficult to dub right up to the hook shank, so keep that in mind. Sometimes it is possible to slide the material along the thread a little.
• I haven't waxed my thread in years, whether it's uni-thread of UTC multi-strand. I think waxing tends to cover up bad technique when you get started tying.
• Synthetic dubbings like Superfine are difficult to get off or slide down the thread. It's always better to put on too little dubbing (in length along the thread) and add more later.
• Did I mention that most people use way too much!

Hope this is helpful to your tying.

[FK]

Great discussion, one technique that I struggled with for years was the neat tapered body.

A video by Del Mazza showed a very simple idea.

Very, very sparce dubbing and apply in layers, first layer is entire body, second layer is 3/4 body length, third layer is 1/2 body length,,,,etc. A neat tapered body is easily produced. This can only be done with VERY sparce amounts of dubbing.

As stated by alanb_ ct,,,try and learn without wax, if the dubbing is very sparce, wax is not necessary and is only a crutch for using too much dubbing.

Regards,
FK

[pmjasper]

FK...any problems with picking out the dubbing by using the layering method? I like the fact that layering the thread/dubbing body makes the fly more durable but want to be sure that some can be picked out for that buggy effect.

One stonefly pattern I tie utilizes tri-lobal thread for the body and dubbing for the abdomen. I don't add legs but rather pick out a good amount of dubbing to give the effect of legs and movement. Too many thread wraps might make picking out the dubbing difficult. Any thought?

[FK]

Picking out dubbing for nymph legs,,,,,I use the dubbing loop method,,,,thicker amount of dubbing material and then pick out with a piece of velcro. The velcro avoids breaking the thread. Use a thin piece of wood and glue on the small piece of velcro. For the legs to work, you require shorter pieces of dubbing in the dubbing loop,,,,not a long continuous fiber like the dry fly body materials.

http://www.flycraftangling.com/flies_arc.html?a=22

http://www.invictaflies.us/Articles/dubbing_loop.htm

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flyt...s/part144.html

http://www.globalflyfisher.com/tiebe...g_your_own.htm


Regards,
FK

[nutman]

I like to use a tooth brush trimmed close to the head to help picj out the dubbing .Also dont forget to use a dubbing loop on larger flys ,if you dont they will fall apart faster ,and if you learn to use your fingers to twist the loop you dont need any tools ,dont forget the higher power gave you digite at the end of your hands ,they work great ,and that is how the oldtimers did it !

[Davyfly]

This is a interesting topic and one that for the majority of fly tyers does present many problems.

I did produce a VHS tape many years ago which showed pretty much any technique of dubbing known and a few more beside that. All you would ever need to know. I may well have that transferred to a DVD format.

The addition of wax to thread is something l do not use, with one exception, related to what we term as touch dubbed effects.
True bees wax was used in the past for this main reason. Pure silk thread will rot, and a coating of wax will reduce this big time, it also acted as a means to stiffen the thread while the fly was ties as back in the old days vices were not commonly used, flies were hand tied, and l know at least one commercial tyer that still does that back in the UK.
If l do use wax it will be pure bees wax.

The majority of so called wax to day is worthless in my book, ski wax is often used along with other similar products. It will largely destroy the elements of translucency you need. It will also add weight to the fly as well as cause clog.
Wax is aplied by pulling the thread through the wax block fast, which caused due to the friction wax to adhere to the thread, but not by excessive amounts.

Dubbing is a technique that takes time to perfect no doubt of that. Materials used all differ. By and large small animal fur such as rabbit and hare are way easier to work with due to the texture of the fiber, they compress easy. Synthetics vary big time again depending on the nature of the fibers used and how it was dyed, as this will often change the how soft or hard it is.
The length of the fibers within a dubbing blend be it natural or synthetic will also make a difference in so far as how easy or other wise that material will work for you.
Natural seal fur is by far one of the most difficult materials to work with.
In fact you can form a dubbed body from wire wool.

I could go on way more here about the dubbing material business as for some 25 years l commercially produced tons of the stuff.

Bottom line is this. All you are doing with a single thread technique is surrounding a thread core with a material that is then wound around the hook shank. I can show you the same thing using wire or any other base used as a core. That simple enables you to then wind it around the hook shank.
Double, triple and split thread methods differ here as you are trapping material between thread.

Which amounts to how you wish the body of that fly to be seen, tight or more of a lose effect, all of which can more or less be achieved with the same material used. It is how you apply it and determine the twist factor that determines this.

I would add here also that threads vary, and that will also have some effect of how easy or other wise it is to form a well dubbed fly body, along with the selection of material and application you apply during the process.

I differ from the majority in that l use only my left hand to dub material to thread the right hand determines how l regulate the tension during that process as it is very important, more so than many realise.
I also while forming bodies will use the factors of that thread such as its elasticity and twist. In other words l may wish to cord that thread real tight or open the thread strands to flatten them out.

For my money the overall best thread out there is Danvilles fly master 6/0, which l have used for some 30 years, prior to that Peasalls silks. The new Wapsi UTC in the 70 is a thread that l am liking way more to use. It does differ some from fly master, but not by much.
I personally dislike UNi thread as it has no real elasticity and cannot be flattened out like FM or UTC, which for me is a very important factor.

I do use both Renzetti and Dyna king vices but l never use the rotary system for application of fly body materials such as dubbing or hackles, l prefer to maintain my thread tension during the wind process and have both hands free which you cannot to using the rotary action, in fact l will argue that use of hands is way faster.

At the end of the day being able to tie flies to perfection is the result of hours at the vice.

But here is a good tip and one l use for my students when teaching dubbing techniques.

Place in the vice a needle. This acts same as the hook shank. Now practice forming body profiles, tapers and all.
It is then a simple matter to slide off the needle the formed body, which in the case of a hook you cannot not, you will have to cut it off.

Come see my ways at Harolds fly shop April

All for now.

Davy.

[nutman]

Davy i agree ,I learned to tye mostly on my own ,for trout flys i never even knew about wax till about two years ago ,Dubbing most flys without wax is the best way .Take rabbit hair it spinns right on the thread ,and I never used a dubbing loop unless I know that the fly isnt going to hold togeather .I had to find this out through trial and error ,which was all part of the fun of learning to tye .And lets face it some flys just arent going to last after casting them all day ,and trout hitting them .When you have caught a trout on that fly it has done its job . I think using our hands is the best method .the only thing the rotary vise has done for me is being able to look at my fly as i build it .To see both sides .Im not the best in the world but I know I tye better then the average bear ,I hate that term dirty tye ,why tye at all if that is what you are going to do,All of my flys are tyed to the best of my abilitys .
I do this out of respect for the fish, i would feel disrespectful to the fish to catch it on a "dirty tye ",but that is me .i tye because it is a reward for me and makes me happy .I respect the old ways ,they are the best ways ,I think most of us forget that this is supposed to be rewarding ,the fly is like the last step of using every part of an animal as much as possible ,this is an amazing thing that we do .
We take parts of animals an catch fish with them ,you have to think about that for a while ,Who came up with it ,whoever he was he was brillant . In a way i feel like a magian profecting his craft ,so this is why I tye the best i can and out of respect for the fish and the oldtimers before me, I use my hands .I hope to be an oldtimer to one day !
i do however use wax to dub my salmon and steel head flys beause they are large and they take a beating out there .The dubbing is large so in order to keep it in place i use wax when i make the dubbing loop ,i still use my fingers to twist the loop though and i have found the thread never breaks then and i have more control over the dubbing

[Davyfly]

Nutman,

I fully understand what you say here as l can relate to that.

Yes, for sure always been some what of a mystery to me also, what compelled in the past the use of animal and birds products to develop a fly to catch fish.
When you think about it there is no other resource that would have allowed for that. Certainly not in those days. To day differs with all the synthetic product we have out there.

But l will say this. You can fashion a fly from plant materials found in your yard, around hedgerows and aquatic vegetation.
Believe me here, l can prove that one.

Enjoy your tying it does add a total concept to fly fishing and understanding, which for those who do not tie it will not, all be it l know some very skilled anglers who do not tie but know what they need for a good fly.

You do not have to be the worlds best to create a fly that catches fish, the innovators of the past were certainly not in that league.


Davy.