Rod and Reel Balance

[Blood Knot]

I recently bought a new rod and reel outfit and the way it felt in my hand made me question the "balance" of the set up. The rod being a Sage Z-Axis 9'-0" 5wt. 4 pc. and the reel is a Ross Evolution LT 2 (4-6 wt.). When I set up the outfit the first time to go fishing something felt different and awkward compared to my other rods. The rod seemed "top heavy" or light on the butt or reel end. Even with a loaded reel the actual pivot point or center of gravity was just over an inch in front of the handle or in front of the hook holder. After some research I found that the ideal pivot point should be about where your thumb and index finger rest on the grip. This may sound critical to some but an out of balance rod can make casting a chore especially for dry fly fishing. It can throw your timing off and make you use bad casting techniques. It's sort of like putting new tires on your car without balancing them and expecting it to drive smoothly. I also have an 8'-6" 4 wt. Z-Axis with a Ross Rhythm reel and it is balanced right where it should be and feels right with no alterations.
Now I was wondering what is making my new rod off balanced. Immediately I thought of the Evolution as being one of the lightest reels on the market today. But shouldn't a light 5 wt. reel be matched perfectly with a light 5 wt. rod like the Z-Axis? Not necessarily. I imagine an 8 ft. 5 wt. rod would have a different center of gravity than a 9 ft. 5 wt. rod. They can't manufacture every reel fine tuned for every rod they make. It is up to you to do the fine tuning or find a reel that balances with the rod.
I brought my new outfit back to the shop where I purchased it and told the "pro" of the situation who looked at me like I had three heads. He wasn't familiar with balancing and didn't know of any solutions so we then called Sage and spoke with a representative. The Sage representative told us this is not an uncommon problem and actually a friend of his had a similar situation with his salt water setup. Here was his solution to the problem:
The reel needed more weight to balance with the rod (so much for bragging that you have one of the lightest reels on the market). The easiest way to do this is to get some lead core trolling line (28 lb. test) and attach some to the spool of the reel underneath the backing. The trick is finding out how much of it you will need to balance your rod. There are formulas for figuring it out, i.e. a loaded reel should weigh about 1.5 times the swing weight of the rod. But the best way to do it is to wrap the lead core around the outside of your reel until you have the proper amount to make your rod balance out. When you find the amount you need just cut it and attach it to the spool before the backing. You may need anywhere from 12" to 30 feet depending on how out of balance your rod is. The only problem is you will be using less backing line. If this doesn't work or you think you're using too much lead core than you might have to go with the next size bigger reel or a heavier reel.
To make a long story short it took about 15 feet of lead core to balance my rod better.

[Silver Creek]

First of all, balance is a dynamic dynamic process that changes with casting. That is, the line outside of the reel varies with the cast so starting with a "balanced" rod with all the line on the reel gradually becomes "unbalanced" as we cast the line.

Once that line lands on the water, the portion of the line that remains on the water no long pulls down on the rod tip. So the perfectly "balanced" rod with all the line on the water now has less weight on the reel and is relatively tip heavy.

Now consider the situation where we need to high stick short casts with only minimal or no fly line out of the guides. We are holding the the rod tip up. A rod that balances perfectly, eg, parallel to the water now has to be forced tip up constantly. In this case a tip light rod would be easier to fish and less tiring.

So the requirements of perfect "balance" change not only with the cast, but with how you are fishing.

Furthermore, the balance point relative to your hand changes by where you hold the rod handle. Hold the rod further back with the back of the hand against the reel and the balance point moves forward relative to your hand. Hold the rod way up at the top of the handle and the the balance point moves back.

For me balance is a carry over from the days of spin fishing where the line is essentially weight less and the balance point stays the same no matter how long the cast. With fly fishing the balance is dynamic; it constantly changes during the cast, and is different after the cast than before.

I like light rods and light reels. I use the standard Evolution 2.0 which is even lighter than the Evo II on a 10 ft GLoomis GLX classic and it fishes fine for me.

For me balance is no big deal unless there is a gross abnormality.

[afishinado]

There's the boo guys vs. the "plastic" guys, the fast rod guys vs. the slow rod guys, the balanced guys vs. the unbalanced guys....lol.

I absolute hate fishing a rod that's unbalanced, especially tip heavy. To demonstrate what I mean in the extreme, pick up a 2x4 and hold it on the end..whoa. Now balance it by holding it in the middle. It weighs the same but feels a light lighter when balanced. My point is even if you choose the lightest reel for your rod, the 1/2 or so weight difference will not be perceptible to you, but if the rod is unbalanced in your hand, you feel like you are actually holding more weight when fishing, and you will be fighting to hold up the tip of the rod all day.

As far as casting, I really don't see much difference in casting proficiency with a balanced or unbalanced rod. Some guys believe there is, and I'll leave that to them. But 90% of the time we are holding the rod fishing. A balanced rod is a pleasure to fish with vs. a tip or butt heavy rod. Borrow an unbalanced rod from your buddy when fishing on the stream and you will immediately see the difference.

Balancing a rod does not have to be complicated at all. Grip the rod as you normally do with the line and backing on the reel, release your grip on the rod and let it balance on your index finger. For the rod to be balanced for fishing, it should be a little butt heavy to allow for the fly line on the water. The amount of fly line (and it's weight) between the tiptop and the water really doesn't vary whether you make a 15' or 115' cast. Holding your rod up while high sticking, or pointing you rod down near the surface changes the amount of line between the tiptop and the water, and changes the weight be a few grains, but if your rod is balanced properly, a slight adjustment up or down on the grip balances the rod just fine. For me high sticking all day with an tip heavy rod is way too much work.

I can't tell you how many times my "unbalanced" fishing buddies tried fishing my rod on the stream after fishing their rods and really became believers. Don't worry Bloodknot, you're not suffering from OCD by balancing your rod. Like many things in FFing, it's a matter of personal choice.

[Silver Creek]

Perhaps I did not explain my view correctly.

The next time you fish, do this. Hold your rod in perfect "balance" and then put a piece of masking tape on the handle just at the front and back border of your hand to mark your exact hand position. Now cast and fish. I believe you will unconsciously move your hand to correct for the amount of line out.

If you move your hand, that is cheating on the concept of a fixed point of balance. I believe balance is dynamic and changes according to how we are fishing. That is why I believe you will vary your hand position to compensate for the amount of line out and whether you are using a sinking or floating line, an active or passive retrieve.

I don't consider balance a problem unless you can't move your hand appropriately. I want the lightest rod, reel, and line combo possible, with a tip light initial "balance" so that as line goes out it becomes more neutral. That is why for my 10 ft long rod, I prefer the original GLX classic.

My view is that there is no "fixed" balance point as in a spinning rod where you will place the reel post between your fingers and keep the same position casting and fishing.

[Blood Knot]

The key here is "initial balance point". Your rod should be close balance with 3 feet of line hanging from the tip top to compensate for the approximate distance the line is from the tip top to the water (the line is weightless in the water until current pulls it). Of course how much line you have on the reel and how you fish is going to change this. But if your rod is way off balance to begin with it is just going to amplify it as you are fishing. Afishinado is right, would you rather hold a 2x4 by the end all day or in the middle?

[afishinado]

[quote author=Silver Creek link=topic=4541.msg35610#msg35610 date=1276875839]
Perhaps I did not explain my view correctly.

The next time you fish, do this. Hold your rod in perfect "balance" and then put a piece of masking tape on the handle just at the front and back border of your hand to mark your exact hand position. Now cast and fish. I believe you will unconsciously move your hand to correct for the amount of line out.

If you move your hand, that is cheating on the concept of a fixed point of balance. I believe balance is dynamic and changes according to how we are fishing. That is why I believe you will vary your hand position to compensate for the amount of line out and whether you are using a sinking or floating line, an active or passive retrieve.

I don't consider balance a problem unless you can't move your hand appropriately. I want the lightest rod, reel, and line combo possible, with a tip light initial "balance" so that as line goes out it becomes more neutral. That is why for my 10 ft long rod, I prefer the original GLX classic.

My view is that there is no "fixed" balance point as in a spinning rod where you will place the reel post between your fingers and keep the same position casting and fishing.
[/quote]


I agree completely Silver Creek, and wrote in my post "but if your rod is balanced properly, a slight adjustment up or down on the grip balances the rod just fine."

If your reel is way too light for your rod, you will find yourself gripping your rod up on the blank when fishing it, and if it is too heavy, your grip position will be back into the reel seat. If you choose a reel (weight) that is close to balancing the rod at your natural gripping point, where it is most comfortable, you need only move your hand up or down slightly to keep the rod balanced. The balance point is a happy medium.

If you buy a reel based solely on the recommended line weight of the reel, say a 3/4 wt reel, and put it on a 6'6" 4wt vs. a 9' 4wt., the balance point would likely be way off on either or both. They are both 4wts! In this case I would likely end up choosing a lighter reel for the 6'6''er vs. a little heavier reel for the 9'er. That's all I'm saying. Get the balance close and the rest will take care of itself.

[Davyfly]

Interesting thread here.
For those of you who have never done this.
Strip off 60 to 80ft of fly line from the reel, and remove the reel from the rod.
Now cast the fly line, how far can you get, 90 TO 100FT does it feel awkward, all out of balance with the rod, odds are it will to you and for you to be able to deal with the difference you will have to adapt your casting stroke, it has nothing to do with the rod and line, its simply that you are not adjusted to the weight difference, which is what the reel, backing and line provides, call it balance if you like.

The reason why l give you this example it that is demonstrates that there are two issues so far as reel/rod balance.

(It is also a one of the teaching tools l use for my casting schools, with very interesting results from the students.)

The first is related to casting, the second fishing, they are very different issues all be it related. By and large few trout fisherman cast much more than 40 to 50ft, in many cases way less, which is of course related to two reasons, one they do not have the ability, second the techniques they are using do not demand long casts, in both either way a balance is desirable .
As many of you know who have attended my schools l cast with a very open hand grip, which very few FF do. My rod control is 80% wrist and hand control the forearm 20%. The upper arm plays a very small part if at all, is it important to me that there is a balance, yes for certain it is, and for myself it is a lower weight issue which is the reel, line and backing, further as l tend to use 10 and 11ft rods and sometimes 12 single handed it is even more important.

Typically in the past reels were heavy as they were combined with bamboo rods. To days fly rods carry way less weight in the upper sections, given say average lengths used of 8.6 to 10ft.
If you ever have the experience of fishing with a 10ft bamboo fly rod you will realise in a hurry the difference by comparison.

It is at the end of the day a personal issue here again related to the two primary issues, does it feel comfortable when you cast, ( and do you have good casting technique ) and do you feel comfortable with you rod hold position when fishing, if not then you may well need to make some adjustments.

By and large l do prefer bottom end weight, all be it if l was fishing a short 6 to 7ft 2/3wt then l would opt for a lighter weight reel, purely for comfort issues, not for the reason that it would have a adverse effect to my cast or fishing.

DW

[Silver Creek]

[quote author=Davyfly link=topic=4541.msg35664#msg35664 date=1277092727]
Interesting thread here.
For those of you who have never done this.
Strip off 60 to 80ft of fly line from the reel, and remove the reel from the rod.
Now cast the fly line, how far can you get, 90 TO 100FT does it feel awkward, all out of balance with the rod, odds are it will to you and for you to be able to deal with the difference you will have to adapt your casting stroke, it has nothing to do with the rod and line, its simply that you are not adjusted to the weight difference, which is what the reel, backing and line provides, call it balance if you like.


DW
[/quote]

Davy, I actually have done that. You probably know the history of this already; but for those that don't, this "experiment" stems from competitive casting way back in the 19th century with R. C. Leonard. The history is preserved in the writings of Vincent C. Marinaro, who wrote of it in his book In the Ring of the Rise

I continue to use the lightest equipment as Marinaro recommends, and I switch reels from rod to rod without ever checking out balance points. I fish them and that really is the test as you have described. Only one time in the last 20 years, when borrowing an old 10 ft Orvis rod, could I never get comfortable with the rod and reel set up. In only that one instance was I not able to find a grip position on the rod handle that did not fit my casting and fishing style.

Marinaro wrote:


"BALANCING A FLY ROD

In 1889 R. C. Leonard, a tournament caster, stepped to the platform without a reel on his rod and simply coiled the line at his feet. With that abbreviated rig he proceeded to smash all existing distance records, including his own, by a wide margin. It was a shocking thing to competitors and spectators alike. It was a momentous discovery from which not only tournament casters but fishermen as well should have profited. That early-day pioneer discovered an extremely important principle in rod dynamics. It amounts to this: That the caster must move the useless weight below the hand as well as the useful weight above the hand; that the removal of dead weight below the hand helped to overcome inertia more quickly, increasing the tip speed, thus imparting a greater velocity to the projectile or fly line. It should have been a valuable lesson to everyone, but it wasn’t. It remained only among the tournament casters for many years.

If you examine the books and catalogs of those early days you will discover that manufacturers and fishermen-writers discussed very learnedly and extensively such things as “fulcrum point,” “counterpoise,” “balancing the fly rod,” and “letting the rod do the work,” none of which has any merit whatsoever. Not until very recently has there been an awareness of this valid principle. It is evidenced by the availability of numerous fine, very lightweight reels on the market today. In view of this trend I should not be discussing this subject at all, except for the fact that I am frequently surprised by the comments of writers and the recommendations of suppliers or manufacturers prescribing a specific size and weight of reel to balance a particular rod. There can be no such thing as balance in a fly rod. There can never be a fixed “fulcrum point.” Every inch that the cast is lengthened or shortened changes the alleged balance and every unnecessary ounce in an unnecessarily heavy reel dampens and degrades the cast. If you wish to explore this a little further, you can try an experiment as I did some years ago. If you have or can borrow enough reels, let us say in two-ounce increments, all the way from the lightest, about two ounces, to something about eight or nine ounces, you will have enough to make the experiment. Use the same weight of line on the same rod for all trials. With the lightest reels the casts are sharply and cleanly delivered flat out with enough velocity to turn over the leaders. You also get a tighter front bow if you want it. As the reels get heavier there is a noticeable lagging in the forward loop until finally with the heaviest reel there is decided dropping of the loop, and probably a failure to turn over the leader properly. This effect is most pronounced on long casts. And consider how much worse it could be with those reels that were manufactured with a hollow arbor into which the purchaser was urged to pour lead pellets through a little trapdoor in order to correct the balance of his fly rod!

You can suit yourself about these matters but for me there is only one sound system and that is: Use the lightest possible reel of good quality and adequate capacity no matter how long or heavy the rod may be . . . ."

~ Vincent C. Marinaro, "In the Ring of the Rise," Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, copyright 1976, pp. 39-41.

[Davyfly]

Silver,

Thanks for posting that. Yes l had read this many years ago and to be honest forgot all about it, it is more or less where l am coming from as you know.
When l was into tournament casting in the 70/80s, one of the top guys at that time now long gone did a demo one time at a Game fair event with a 18ft bamboo tournament double hander and a trout fly rod, no reel, here again it astonished many of the onlookers.

DW

[Gregorygob]

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