Re: Housy Stocking Paradigm Update
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14125#msg14125 date=1220833901]
Eddie/SloNDeep-
I find your viewpoint on this somewhat self-centered. The upper 5% of "expert" fishermen like yourself will be successful in many tougher fisheries where average anglers fail or do poorly. However, remember that the average guy accounts for probably 95% of the fishing pressure on the Housy, and if the fishing sucks for him he probably won't come back, or at least not often- he will go elsewhere to better managed fisheries. So we should manage a fishery to please 5% of the anglers, or should we manage it for everyone? They have just as much right to have a successful angling experience as you, the expert does. There is a word to add to your vocabulary- COMPROMISE.
[/quote]
It's still trout welfare to me.
Say what you want; my reality is that I fished the Housy many times and took a skunking. I went back many tmes because of its promise of large holdovers and when I caught fish, they were 9-12 inches and looked like crap in the spring but looked better in the Fall. Phil used to tell me about all the 20+ leviathans in the river and I thought he was full of crap.
Most of my early trips up to the Hous were to collect insects, it is amazingly prolific. The river is special in many ways, and has a unique ability to grow big beautiful specimens. That is why I like fishing there.
By watching and listening to others who I saw catch big fish, I eventually learned to fish the river well. That opportunity exists for ALL LICENSED ANGLERS.
Stop referring to others who dont see things your way as myopic, and try on some new glasses yourself
Hugs and kisses,
Ed
PS In my attempt at honest self-appraisal, I would say that I am probably in the top 10-20% slot; saying I'm in the top 5% is grossly overestimating my ability level.
Re: Housy Stocking Paradigm Update
Eddie/SloNDeep-
On the Housy, you are in the top 5%, get over yourself.
Mr. PhD, I find YOUR views myopic. The Housy isn't just for you, it's for EVERYONE. Can you honestly tell me that there are the same number of holdover browns that there used to be? If so, you will be the only one saying it. The preliminary electroshocking data confirms what we all already knew- right now, holdover #'s are way down. Fish from the Spring of '08 are present along with HRO rainbows, but of '07 state fish are very few. You know why Housy trout are hard to catch? Because there aren't that many of them in there! If this river was stocked like any other river in the state would be, the catch rate & number of holdovers would be way up.
The old management paradigm in place isn't working as it used to. The fishery is in evolution (Natural Flow, poaching, Global Warming, etc.) and changes need to be made. You want to see lots of small fish 6-8" stocked, I believe you refer to them as "rats". That might work, we would have to try it & see what happens- I'm not at all against trying it. However, we also need to increase the # of 9-12" 1 Year Old Adults too, as well as add in some 14-16" fish. Although they have stocked trout over 12" before, they have never studied how they do, and the biologist in charge tells me the only way to find out would be to stock them and see.
Old timers like Lou Kish and many others tell me it used to be a real event to get to go fish the Housy when they were kids, so big was it's reputation for coughing up large trout & having great fly fishing. Somewhere along the line, the reputation has slipped. Back in the day, pre C&R when the Housy was at it's most famous, the state used to stock somewhere between 22,000 and 30,000 ADULT trout, averaging around a foot with some bigger, hundreds of big 3-10 pound breeders went in, HFFA put tagged trout in the 16-22" range in, and there were private individuals with permits stocking bigger trout too. Lou told me the other day, and I've been told this before, that you could hardly find a parking space on the river on a weekend in the Spring. Said the amount of fishermen utilizing the river was way higher. And the fishing was unbelieveable. The old timers tell me the state never treated the river the same after PCB's were discovered in it.
The Housy has been treated like the red-headed stepchild by the state for years now, and they need to get off their ass and manage it properly so it can live up to it's potential.
Most fishermen will never have the time or desire to master the Housy under it's current conditions & low trout numbers. The catch rate over the last 10 years went from .7 trout per hour down to .2- that's a concrete # and not surprising at all to me. It needs to be addressed. When asked what they would like to see changed, most of the anglers in the creel surveys told them that the state needs to stock more & bigger trout, what a surprise- NOT!
So if the state does all the things that the vast majority of us think needs to be done to get the Housy up to speed, it would include increasing #'s of 6-8" fish to help produce more of the challenging "true" holdovers you love to catch. That should make you happy. But I'm sure in your mind it will suck that you will catch a bunch of trout that were stocked that same year, in between the elusive holdovers- even though all the holdovers were once "rats".
I understand that the Housy is a very fertile, limestone influenced river, and that historically it has produced good holdover trout. What you seem to be overlooking is that the numbers of holdovers are way down, and what used to work isn't working, for whatever reasons, and catch rates are way down, and anglers are unhappy and fishing elsewhere- on better managed fisheries. Something has to be done, and it WILL involve some sort of compromise compared to what YOU want. That's life. You can either have a river that is managed under the current strategies and fishes poorly, or one that is stocked much more heavily with a variety of fish sizes and will produce much better catch rates & more holdovers. A 14" "rat" is going to be a beautiful 18" holdover with beautiful fins & coloration 2 years later, is that so horrible? If so, remember that you are in a very small minority that represents a paradigm that probably less than 5% of the fishermen would support.
Believe me, the state will make changes and see what does & doesn't work- if smaller stocked fish work, but in bigger numbers or stocked in the Fall instead of the Spring, then they will do that in the future. One thing is for sure though, the Housy doesn't fish like it should, could or used to. Talk to people who fished here in the 40's, 50's, 60's or 70's and see what they tell you, I think you will find it enlightening.
Re: Housy Stocking Paradigm Update
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
Eddie/SloNDeep-
On the Housy, you are in the top 5%, get over yourself. [/quote]
Huh? I'm not really sure how to address this.
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
Mr. PhD, I find YOUR views myopic.[/quote]
Tell me how you really feel
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359] The Housy isn't just for you, it's for EVERYONE. Can you honestly tell me that there are the same number of holdover browns that there used to be?If so, you will be the only one saying it.[/quote]
No, Can you tell me there are not?
I've heard this story before (from many people), and historically they have been incorrect.
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359] The preliminary electroshocking data confirms what we all already knew- right now, holdover #'s are way down. [/quote]
Are you admitting bias?
There are higher flows this year during sampling than in years past and the trout are not confined to the refuges as they have been in the past.
There is no shutdown flow like in the past few years to do the sampling in confined pools, nor to fish for trapped fish.
There are many plausable reasons for why the samplings can appear light this year.
It could also be true that the number of holdovers is actually down this year, but it will be some time before we know that for sure.
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
Fish from the Spring of '08 are present along with HRO rainbows, but of '07 state fish are very few. You know why Housy trout are hard to catch? Because there aren't that many of them in there! If this river was stocked like any other river in the state would be, the catch rate & number of holdovers would be way up. [/quote]
That is possible
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
The old management paradigm in place isn't working as it used to. The fishery is in evolution (Natural Flow, poaching, Global Warming, etc.) and changes need to be made. You want to see lots of small fish 6-8" stocked, I believe you refer to them as "rats". That might work, we would have to try it & see what happens- I'm not at all against trying it. However, we also need to increase the # of 9-12" 1 Year Old Adults too, as well as add in some 14-16" fish. Although they have stocked trout over 12" before, they have never studied how they do, and the biologist in charge tells me the only way to find out would be to stock them and see. [/quote]
I'm not sure of the effect of global warming on the TMA in the Housatonic river in Connecticut, but would be happy to look at the mean daily temperature for the past 30 to 50 years and see how different the recent trend is.
I'm not sure "we need" to add larger fish to the stocking program. I'm sure some people would prefer that, but that does not warrant doing it.
Many people who pay for their licences in the State of Connecticut would like to see CO's enforcing the current regulations and believe that this would improve the fishery significantly, should we ignore this? Should we just stock more so the poachers can come with their extended families and take more without consequence?
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
Old timers like Lou Kish and many others tell me it used to be a real event [/quote]
It still is
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
to get to go fish the Housy when they were kids, so big was it's reputation for coughing up large trout & having great fly fishing. Somewhere along the line, the reputation has slipped. Back in the day, pre C&R when the Housy was at it's most famous, the state used to stock somewhere between 22,000 and 30,000 ADULT trout, averaging around a foot with some bigger, hundreds of big 3-10 pound breeders went in, HFFA put tagged trout in the 16-22" range in, and there were private individuals with permits stocking bigger trout too. Lou told me the other day, and I've been told this before, that you could hardly find a parking space on the river on a weekend in the Spring. Said the amount of fishermen utilizing the river was way higher. And the fishing was unbelieveable. The old timers tell me the state never treated the river the same after PCB's were discovered in it. [/quote]
That's great. Does that mean we need to do that now?
Do you really believe that if the State stocked 5-10 times the number of 6-9 inch trout, for a period of three years, that the Housatonic wouldn't be exactly the fishery you desire?
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
The Housy has been treated like the red-headed stepchild by the state for years now, and they need to get off their ass and manage it properly so it can live up to it's potential. [/quote]
I'm not prepared to say that the State Biologists have horribly mismanaged the fishery. I mean, how can you believe the data generated by this same group of biologists whom you criticize for this mismanagement? Because their current data support your claims?
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
Most fishermen will never have the time or desire to master the Housy under it's current conditions & low trout numbers. [/quote]
Oh well, sucks for them. They will miss out on one of the most spectacular rivers and experiences that exists in the entire Northeast US.
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
The catch rate over the last 10 years went from .7 trout per hour down to .2- that's a concrete # and not surprising at all to me. It needs to be addressed. [/quote]
A) Lets agree to not call the "undevoted" people anglers
B) The catch rate 10 years ago was analyzed during shutdown flows
C) What is the correlation of catch rate decrease to the switch to a natural flow regime? Did the catch rate drop precipitously following the switch from pond and release to natural flow, or has the catch rate dropped gradually over the entire ten years? Where are these numbers published? In peer reviewed journals of fisheries management? Are the methods and timing of creel survey subject to critical review?
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
When asked what they would like to see changed, most of the anglers in the creel surveys told them that the state needs to stock more & bigger trout, what a surprise- NOT! [/quote]
Right, I expect nothing less from a large group of people. Of which there are many who wish for instant gratification. This is a societal problem that is noted in many peer reviewed journals
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
So if the state does all the things that the vast majority of us think needs to be done to get the Housy up to speed, it would include increasing #'s of 6-8" fish to help produce more of the challenging "true" holdovers you love to catch. That should make you happy. But I'm sure in your mind it will suck that you will catch a bunch of trout that were stocked that same year, in between the elusive holdovers- even though all the holdovers were once "rats".
I understand that the Housy is a very fertile, limestone influenced river, and that historically it has produced good holdover trout. What you seem to be overlooking is that the numbers of holdovers are way down, and what used to work isn't working, for whatever reasons, and catch rates are way down, and anglers are unhappy and fishing elsewhere- on better managed fisheries. Something has to be done, and it WILL involve some sort of compromise compared to what YOU want. That's life. You can either have a river that is managed under the current strategies and fishes poorly, or one that is stocked much more heavily with a variety of fish sizes and will produce much better catch rates & more holdovers. A 14" "rat" is going to be a beautiful 18" holdover with beautiful fins & coloration 2 years later, is that so horrible? If so, remember that you are in a very small minority that represents a paradigm that probably less than 5% of the fishermen would support. [/quote]
The Housatonic is a river that should be managed differently (IMO). It is a river unlike any other and should be managed as its own entity.
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
Believe me, the state will make changes and see what does & doesn't work- if smaller stocked fish work, but in bigger numbers or stocked in the Fall instead of the Spring, then they will do that in the future. [/quote]
Do you know that this will/won't work?
Do you suspect that this will not work?
I suspect that an increase in the number of small stocked trout will be sufficient to increase the numbers of holdover trout above that which currently exists. I suspect this alone will increase the catch rate as more fish will be spread out in more of the river. I further suspect that if the State adopts this stocking model that most people who come to occaisionally fish the housatonic will catch 6-9 inch fish.
[quote author=Nymphmeister link=topic=2023.msg14158#msg14158 date=1220975359]
One thing is for sure though, the Housy doesn't fish like it should, could or used to. Talk to people who fished here in the 40's, 50's, 60's or 70's and see what they tell you, I think you will find it enlightening.
[/quote]
Do you suspect that I haven't spoken to people who fished this magnificent river many years ago?
Do you know what I want?
I'll agree to let you respond once more (and I'll shut up), then we'll have the rest of this conversation by phone. It's hard to know when things cross a line - especially on the innernet :)
Re: Housy Stocking Paradigm Update
One question to all of the above posters, I was told by a very involved FF on the Farmington who is close to the DEP the following.
The genetic strain of the present trout is not the same as was stocked in the past (no exact time frame stated).
The trout stocked in the Farmington have identification marks - color coded to I.D. the year of stocking.
The vast majority of trout only live 2 years in the Farmington and it is only a rare fish that makes it to 4 years. The larger trout we catch in the Farmington were stocked as larger fish and are not holdovers.
Can anyone comment ?
Regards,
FK
Re: Housy Stocking Paradigm Update
FK-
When the state started putting 2 year old browns averaging 16-18" into the Farmington TMA several years ago (4?), the size of the trout caught took a sudden leap, and all of a sudden it became not all uncommon to catch 16-18" trout. What a surprise.... not. The biologists there tell me that the truly large trout in the TMA (breeders excepted) come from one of two sources: 1. "Survivior Strain" stocked yearlings, and 2. Wild fish. These are the 2 groups that reach sizes over 20" on their own in the Farmington.
Yes, the strain of browns stocked now is different from what it used to be. Some old timers blame the decline of trout fishing on the Housy on this, but the biologists told me they were never happy with the old strain, and that the current strain(s) they are stocking are superior in their mind.
Eddie/SloNDeep-
Thanks for the book, can I have it autographed too?
Jeez, I don't even know where to start.
Stocking much higher numbers of small trout may fix the problem- we have to try it to find out. Stocking higher numbers of small trout may also not work- we can only speculate until we try it. I don't know how likely it is that the state will ever put in a high enough # of them to truly see how it would work- Aaron seems to think we would need something like 100,000 6" trout to do it right, the way PA would do it if the Housy were in their state.
I think the most logical approach is to try 3 different size trout and see how each group does:
6-8"
9-12"
14-16"
Why put all your eggs in the "one size only" basket?
The number of holdover browns from '07 and before is down whether you chose to believe it or not. The catches of all my more experienced friends, mine, our guides, my customers and virtually everyone I've talked to confirm this. So hearing that data from the state, whether or not their data is accurate, is just more weight of evidence in my book. We had fantastic water conditions in May, but the big browns were in short supply.
Yes, they are probably having difficulty accurately sampling the trout population in the Housy. But the data I saw so far had a horrible ratio of holdovers to '08 browns and HRO stocked rainbows. Even with sampling difficulty, the ratios should still be valid.
As far as it being harder to catch trout under Natural Flow, I'm sure that's the case for most fishermen. But that is one variable that is here to stay, so adjustments have to be made. The most obvious one is to stock more trout. I think the only real debate here is how many, what size, and when to put them in (Spring, Fall, etc.).
So you are not sure we "need" to add larger trout to the stocking program, and I'm not sure that increasing the number of small trout stocked will be effective. The bottom line is all you & I can do is speculate what the end result will be, but until we try different things and see what happens, speculation is all that it is. I'm not against trying any reasonable, logical approach- why are you so tunnel visioned on small fish only??
You seem to still be in denial that there is a problem. Eddie, I can tell you that the big, holdover browns you & I love to catch are still there, but the numbers are way down- not anywhere near what they should & could be. I would say maybe 30% the number of them that I'm used to over 23 years of fishing the Housy.
I think the Housy can be better than it ever was- IF it is managed properly and with a flexible management plan. It is a unique fishery and needs to be managed as it's own entity. The fertility, food base, structure, hatches & beauty are off the charts.
The state's budget for CO's is tiny, and a relatively small # of them patrol a very large area, for both fishing & hunting. The majority of the CO's are tied up in State Parks & on major lakes like Candlewood. I know all this to be true because I'm on the Fisheries Advisory Committee that meets quarterly with the DEP. Until the budget there is VASTLY increased, you won't see great enforcement. Most of the CO's are doing a good job, there are just way too few of them. Poaching is a problem that unfortunately is not going away, and that sucks. :(
I don't know what would happen if the state stocked 5-10x more 6-9" trout, but I'd sure be curious to see what happens after several years of that.
If the state stocks more small fish, then anglers will catch more small fish. If they stock more 12" trout, anglers will catch more 12" trout. And if 16" trout go in, anglers will catch more 16 inchers. How each size group will fare in the long run, only experimentation & time will tell. Bachman or Benkhe wrote about stocking different size brown trout, and the optimum size for producing holdovers according to their studies turned out to be around 14".
I'm not against increasing the number of small trout stocked, but if they do it they are going to (IMO)need to put a vastly increased number in to give it a fair shake. But I'm also not against increasing the number of 10-12" adults, and also putting 14-16" fish in also and seeing how the 3 different groups fare. Seems to me it would create a more balanced fishery, and if the fish were stocked in Spring and Fall, work as "insurance" against Summertime fish loss, as there would always be some nice fish to catch no matter what.
Do I want to see the Housy stocked the way it was in the 70's? That wouldn't be my first choice, but I'm certainly not against it. That regime apparently produced some pretty incredible fishing. I don't think we need to put brood stock fish in, but I would like to see some better sized browns stocked & track their progress. Why do you seem to be so against anything but stocking small trout? I say try all 3 size groups and see what works best- it may ultimately be a combination of 2 or 3 different sizes, we don't yet know.
The biologists tell me that the only way to know what the carrying capacity of the Housy is involves stocking an increasing number of trout until you see negative consequences. And as far as how bigger trout would hold over compared to smaller trout, they have never studied how trout stocked at over 12" fare, so again they told me the only way to find out would be to stock them and follow their progress.
Eddie, good, skilled fishermen are all telling me the same thing- the numbers of holdover browns in way down. And the only people catching them with any kind of regularity are spending most of their time in the Park. I've heard of & seen very few 16"+ browns from outside of that area. It shouldn't be that way, and it didn't used to be.
Soooo..... lets confine future discussion of this to personal conversations, I think we have both made our points. Besides, it really only boils down to 2 significant differences of opinion between us:
1. What size trout should be stocked (the main bone of contention between us).
2. My opinion that the number of holdover browns is significantly down, and yours that it isn't.
Re: Housy Stocking Paradigm Update
From here:
http://www.hffa.net/Conservation.html
9/11/2008 FAC Meeting: Inland Fisheries Update
Inland Fish Management & Fish Culture
Housatonic Trout Management Area - Fish sampling was completed in early September. Electrofishing has become more difficult under higher natural water levels, now that river flows have become “run-of-river”. To help overcome difficult sampling conditions, a portable electrofishing boat was utilized for the first time, and appeared to be very useful on long deep pools. This summer’s sampling provided reliable data that will be helpful in making future management decisions. Recently-stocked brown trout yearlings and adults were sampled in the same proportion as they were stocked, indicating that yearlings contributed to the fishery and are not being preyed upon at a greater rate than the larger adults. Large-size brown trout stocked the previous fall (2007) appeared to have better survival than the adults and yearlings. However, very few holdover brown trout from earlier stockings were present, which is a concern that needs to be discussed. Large rainbow trout stocked privately below the TMA emigrated to the lower reaches of the TMA, and were more abundant than brown trout in the Furnace Brook refuge. The effect of rainbow trout upon brown trout in thermal refuges also needs to be discussed.
Temperature recorders were set in riffles and deep pools during the summer to determine if cooler water persisted in deep pools. Slightly cooler water was present in the pools, but the difference was negligible and did not last through the day. High flows and relatively cool air temperatures may have negated any possibility for thermal stratification to occur in pools this summer. However, when water temperatures reached above 27 C upstream of Furnace Brook, mainstem temperatures were 1.5 C lower at the upper end of the TMA than at the lower end, which may have importance for trout survival. An angler survey is also being conducted on the TMA, as well as the river below the TMA (Cornwall-Kent). Angler catch rates of trout through mid June were very low (0.2 trout/hr) partly due to high flows, but also to the possibility of low trout abundance. The survey will continue through the fall. Fall augmentation stocking of brown trout is now planned. Due to the lack of holdovers and poor catch rates, 400 trophy-size brown trout, along with another 800 adult-size brown trout will be stocked in the Housatonic River TMA in mid September.
Housatonic Bulls Bridge Trout and Bass Management Area - Sampling indicated an average number of trout present. Abundance and size of smallmouth bass and trout continues to be reduced by illegal harvest. Stocking of 400 adult –sized brown trout has been planned for mid September.
Re: Housy Stocking Paradigm Update
Thanks for putting this up Alain.
Even with multi-year holdovers browns being down, I still had a customer come in the shop yesterday with a pic of a housy brown that went easily in the 22-24" range, a perfect colored-up, hook-jawed male brown caught on a nymph. The pic is on the "Wall of Fame" at HRO.
