Czech or Polish Nymphing

[LorenWilliams]

[/quote][quote author=SloNDeep link=topic=1060.msg9973#msg9973 date=1205815339]
Hmmm,

Pink condoms, buying fly tying materials in gay bars, and incorporating backing into your nymphing leaders. You're really wierd dude. But I'm sure you've heard that before.

I'm trying to envision this leader design but cant figure out how your workin it. Are you only using this setup when you're fishing close to you, like high stickin?

Or can you fish at a distance from yourself?

Do you use this setup in shallow riffles? I imagine it would be deadly in riffles because you have a longer, varigated strike indicator. But I cant see this working in deeper water or with heavily weighted flies. The backing will not offer any significant buoyancy, so how does it help? Do you sometimes put indicators on the backing section? I can't remember if you said whether you are allowed to use attachable indicators

How long a section of backing do you incorporate into your leader? Do you still have a lengthy butt section (4-6 feet)?

What kinds of knots do you use to incorporate the backing between the mono sections?

Do you grease up the backing section?

I'll stop for now, feel free to tell me to pound sand. I'll be tryin this out either way.



[/quote]

SloNDeep:

There is no intent for the "sighter" to float. It is merely a highly visible "mark" on my leader that I can use to better track my flies and register takes. I can use it, or modifications of it to fish very close in the Czech style, very far in the Spanish style or upstream and back. Does not matter.

Please re-read Davy Wotton's post. Notice how it is generalized. It is that way out of necessity. Notice how I have refrained from specifics? On purpose...and not because I am a jerk (which I probably am-definitely weird! )

I guess that is the fact I feel compelled to stress most-general/versatile. When I fish nymphs (or any flies for that matter) it's a problem solving affair. My actual rig (rod, line, leader, sighter and cast of flies) are all chosen to form a team of tools that solve the problem of conditions I face. As the water conditions, wind, species, fishing pressure...as they all change my techniques must change with them.

Davy made a very important comment that I have been neglecting...and that is drift speed. It is paramount to being successful and it's over neglected.

For example, when I guide for steelhead (we are limited to only one fly so I must use shot)--I will often add a small shot. This is not to get depth, it is to slow the drift speed. The indicator will aways run at the faster surface speed--by using a right angle with a consistent diameter tippet I am able to negate a bit of that drag but I must then match the weight to create bottom contact to slow the drift to the proper speed. It's a tricky skill adn it takes close attention to detail as well as experience--but you really need to do go there to get to the next level.

These European nymphing skills have been designed by guys much smarter than me and revolve around getting your flies quickly to depth, staying in contact with them while they fish at the proper speed to you can immediately detect takes. You MUST be versatile....there is never a single pat answer.

[Davyfly]

Yes, that is the issue here, you have to adapt your rig to the water you are fishing. I may change that many times within a 100 section of water l was fishing.
Fast shallow water would differ from deeper water, or fishing off a drop off or structure to a deep water pocket and so on.
As a rule l use the same BS of line through the system, be it 4/5/6 x from the Amnesia.

There are options so far as how you tie droppers from very simple to more complicated affairs, which l do not think are necessary. the only set up l may use from a fixed rig is one l use that allows for the dropper tag to be moved up or down.

More or less l have a butt section of Amnesia, red or green to the fly line, l simply add my additional sections to that. It is in no way a complicated affair by any means.

My anchor fly , or the one that carries more weight may be in any of the 3 positions, tail mid or top, it all depends on how l wish my flies to track related to water depth and speed.

Davy.

[Nymphmeister]

Davy-
Loren & I have discussed a little about BH flies and the possibility of them alerting trout to your fly being something to avoid, what is your feeling about this? I don't use a lot of gold beads anymore, the trout see so many of them in pressured rivers, if I tie a BH it's more often copper or black, and sometimes silver. As I told Loren, if I'm in stealth mode it's either black or no bead at all. Wapsi does a cool color they call olive brown, I want to play with that one.

Gary LaFontaine did some really interesting underwater research on BH flies, where he manipulated the variables and studied them as scientifically as possible. His conclusion? The major reason for their sometimes superior results was mainly due to the placement of weight in the extreme front of the fly, which made the flies "jig" slightly and look alive during the dead drift- that was far and away the reason for it's effectiveness, everything else was a distant 2nd. He said the flash positively DOES NOT imitate a "gas bubble", and that it actually sometimes spooks the fish, esp. in situations like spring creeks, but can also be to your advantage in murky water where it helps the fish find the fly. He also mentioned that the ability to put more weight into a small fly via the BH was also somewhat helpful.

I used to have the theory that a BH helps the trout find smaller nymphs, esp. in fast/broken water, because the round bead will reflect light back to the fish's eye no matter what position the fly is in relation to the fish- as long as it is in it's line of sight of course. But again, with constant bombardment from BH flies, I don't know if this works more for or against you nowadays. The first few years I fished BH's, hardly anyone else was doing it, and I HAMMERED the trout on them. Sorta like Woolly Buggers before they became a mainstream fly.

There is always that line between incorportating features into your flies that attract the fish, but not overdoing it to the point that they reject the fly when they get close and recognize the fakery.

One thing for sure, if I'm nymphing and one of my flies has a BH, the other will be plain so as to give the fish a choice.

[Davyfly]

I would agree that the addition of bead heads does add attraction no doubt of that and it also adds additional means to add weight.
The issue of whether or not the addition of a silver bead represents the silvery appearance of a emerging caddis pupa or a mayfly nymph is a very different matter, who knows the true answer to that one.
There is no doubt that the inclusion of silver and gold bodies to a fly will promote fish to take that fly.
Are trout capable of examining a natural fly anatomically, do they have the perception to determine the anatomical recognition needs to be exact so far as abdomen, thoracic region, wing emergence and so on. I doubt that. If they had that perception to a extreme trout would be nearly impossible to catch with our crude representations of naturals and how we present them.

What is known to be fact is that fish will develop awareness to high degrees of sensitivity toward what we as humans do to catch them, of that there is no doubt.

I have trout in my ponds that are almost impossible to catch, even with 10x and tiny flies, they can see those flies no problem, but they can also see the mono filament.
Flies neither contain the natural elements of smell and taste.

At the other end of the scale, and l will use this as a example. The Brown trout found in the great natural limestone lakes of western Ireland are fish of genetic strains that have been there for 1000s of years.
There is not a natural food source within those systems those fish have not eaten. The most effective way to catch those fish is with flies that in many cases do not represent either anatomically or by definition of color the naturals, all be it there may be some relevance to tails, bodies and wings. Remember we cannot replicate the elements that natural flies exhibit.

Overall my philosophy so far as catching trout after nearly 50 years fishing around the world is this.

I do not know how a fish perceives either a natural or a artificial fly.
I do not look at the matter of catching fish as a science as there is no constant and never will be.
I know that under given prevailing conditions which may be related to insect activity, water conditions, the water l am fishing and so on that the odds are if l fish by a given manner l will catch fish.
Each and every water system l have ever fished around the world has its own peculiarities in so far as how the fish within that system will react to given flies fished and how they are presented. Natural lakes for example differ big time from rivers.
And that is related to the behaviour of those fish within that system.
That a skilled fly fisherman can make the choice of how he chooses to fish for the same fish, be it nymph, dry, wet fly, streamers and so on, if you have the fundamental understanding of how to do so.
I also know that within 10 fly patterns there is not a trout system in the world l cannot catch fish from. But l also know there may be times that a specific fly and the manner it is presented will catch percentage more fish at that time.

My honest feeling overall is this. Fly fishing at the highest level of understanding, which includes many skills, can only be achieved from many years of fishing very many different water systems. There is no other solution.
That many to day try to evaluate fly fishing in levels way above what is necessary. It is overall a simple scenario of deception by way of the flies we use and how we present them to the fishes eye.
And that is largely where the problem lies for the majority.

Give me these 5 flies and l know for a fact l will catch trout any place they live. River, Stream, Creeks, Lakes.

A hares ear nymph
A hares ear soft hackle
A winged wet hares ear
A Elk hair caddis
A wooly bugger.

And a box of lead shot.

All of the above flies can be fished as singles or in combinations together. The permutations are endless.

Davy.

[alanb_ct]

Davy,

Thank you for that synopsis. I have been watching your DVDs, so I can't help but hear your voice when reading your posts. The 5 fly simplification you mention would be a joy to execute; I am always wondering why I carry so much. Aaron once told me a trout's IQ is about 3, so the many flies we carry amuse us more than the fish. So much time spent on details, when presentation and learning to read a stream are so much greater in value. Looking forward to seeing you in CT.

[LorenWilliams]

Yes Davy, that was great! It truly is great to have an angler of your caliber willing to share with us all.

[Nymphmeister]

I love seeing a short list of flies. Somebody is a fan of Hare's Mask fur.... Me too!

It's funny, as many flies as I carry in my vest (thousands, literally), there are probably a dozen patterns in various sizes and colors that account for 80-90% of the time on the end of my leader. But God forbid I give up any of those other flies, I MIGHT need them someday.

I like DavyFly's short list of 5 flies, and I cannot find fault with it. If I were allowed to add to it, I would include:

6. Prince Nymph
7. Pheasant Tail Nymph
8. The Usual (in different sizes & colors)
9. Foam Beetle
10. Ant
11. Muddler Minnow
12. Egg Fly
13. Olive Caddis Larva
14. Glass Bead Midge Pupa
15. Griffith's Gnat
16. Zonker
17. Stonefly Nymph
18. BH Twist Nymph
19. Poly Wing Spinner (various colors & sizes, esp. rusty!)
20. Parachute Adams
21. San Juan Worm- assorted colors
22. Alexandria ('cuz Davy says it's one of the all time great wets)
23. X-Caddis- assorted sizes & colors
24. Flashback Barr Emerger in BWO

I'll stop at 24 total, or I could keep going for a long, long time.

[TroutAholic]

What? No deep sparkle pupa?

[Nymphmeister]

Whoops! You are right, I left out a Caddis Pupa, although a Soft Hackle Hare's Ear could certainly double for one. I like the simplfied pupa that I use, it's a spin-off of LaFontaine & Borger's patterns, but even simpler. So #25 would be "Simple BH Pupa" in tan, olive/green and brown, or a LaFontaine Sparkle Pupa. Good Lookin' Out Steve.

[Fox Statler]

I have been reading this thread and there are some things being said about different styles of nymphing that are not even close to true. I think they would be called myths.

Indicator fishing is always more sensitive to suttle takes than any other kind of fishing. Very simply because the indicator is a direct indication of any kind of activity of the fly if you know how to read it. Without an indicator, some sort of tension must be put on fly to keep the fly off of the bottom and detect the strike. Tension applied by an angler pulls the fly from the bottom and out of the strike zone. A strike that moves the fly line is not a suttle strike. If you add weight to the leader, it causes the angler to put more and more tension on the fly to keep it from snagging the bottom. Here is a point that most nymph fishermen do not realize - The river becomes a lake when the fly is drifted with the current. In other words, even the smallest weighted fly will eventually get to the bottom if given enough time or drift. There are more efficient methods of getting a fly down than adding weight to the leader. The relationship of how the fly and indicator lands on the water with the current can make the fly fall quicker or slower. It was said that an indicator will not detect a strike when the fish is floating with the fly. Excuse me but aren't all (and I mean all) strikes detected when the fish exerts some force on the fly. You can cut an indicator that will lay down when a fish picks up the fly from underneath or swims with the fly, leader and line. I call them "Hypercators" because they will lay down. There is no detecting the strike if the fish picks up the fly from underneath without using an indicator.

Here are a few tips on indicator fishing:
One, there are three ways the indicator and fly land in the stream. Learn them and their uses.
Two, round ball indicators only tell the angler half the story of the fly. Use long indicators because when your indicator turns around it means something. Find out what it means and use it to your advantage.
Three, cut your indicator out of closed cell foam tape twice as wide and twice as long as your weighted fly, then tune it to drift the fly properly by making it longer or shorter.
Four, there are three depths to fish an indicator, at the bottom, above the bottom, and below the bottom. Below the bottom for the individual that said indicator fishing was undesirable when fishing pocket water.
Five, only with an indicator can you fish the fly at the bottom three times longer than any other kind of nymphing. You can fish above you, across from you, and below you all in the same drift.
Six, if your indicator is making a small V, mend becaus the fly is not on the bottom in the strike zone and you or the fly line are putting tension on the fly .
There are more of these but some other time.

I landed several browns over 10 pounds on 8x, 7x, and 6x on #24 to #16 bugs. Build a rig to fish the flies and tippets that you want to use, I love 10 foot one weights. All line records are about 10 times the line strength, why use heavier leader.

Originator Of The Arkansas Dead Drift,
Fox Statler