Couple Questions...

[Duck-butt Chucker]

Couple Questions. Limiting my box this year to the following:

Dries:
Adams CDC Comparadun 16-22
Griffith's Gnat 14,18, 22, 26
Serendipity, Tan 16, 20 (fished as a dry so i'll probably need flotant in order to do so effectively)

Streamer:
Black Weighted Zonker Size 8

Question 1: I fish my Adams CDC Comparadun for all mayfly hatches regardless of color (BWO, Sulfer, Cahills, etc..). I like the fly specifically because it works effectively for both an Emerger (body rides low in the film) and Spinner (close enough wing imprint by well packed CDC). I am considering having them tied on scud hooks this season and believe it would slightly improve my catch rate during emerger stage and wouldn't likely reduce my catch rate during spinner stage (since the body on regular hook rides low in film on spinner falls already anyway and wing imprint from the CDC is still the same). I also believe a "half sunk" spinner would actually look closer to a CDC comparadun tied on a scud hook as opposed to a straight hook anyway. Do you think this is true or would the "straight body in the film" be the better spinner imitator as opposed to "scud hook" version? Secondly, since the body rides low in the film either way with the CDC comparadun does it even matter using a scud hook vs. straight hook body in regard to the emergers to begin with?

Question 2: I have not used a CDC Comparadun to imitate caddis hatches of the same size but logically I don't really see why this wouldn't work well enough to where I would not need a separate caddis emerger pattern (ie; Serendipity) from my mayfly emerger pattern (ie; CDC Comparadun). Do you believe this is necessary or will they both work about the same? The CDC Comparadun will also get a consistently better drift vs. the Serendipity and looks almost identical in overall body shape if tied on a scud hook so do you think the CDC Comparadun would effectively imitate a caddis emerger well enough as well or do I need a separate caddis emerger pattern?

Question 3: I'm also almost inclined this season to just have every other size tied (ie; only 16, 20, 24) as opposed to carrying all sizes (ie; 16, 18, 20, 22, 24) since if trout are on "size 16 sulfers" and 10 people are fishing "size 16 sulfer parachutes" while the hook size for each of them is identical there is still both varience on the amount of material on the hook so that isn't a constant yet the pattern is still is efficient. i'm looking at my 18 vs 20 griffith's gnat and the difference in the amount of material on the hook (which is what actually imitates the fly, not the hook size itself) between the two material-wise is basically no different to where it's almost like to the amount of varience in material from the 10 different people fishing a "size 16" fly. I also have seen it stated numerous times that while one size larger almost never works, one size smaller very often does in my own experience, Rosenbauer states "same size or one size smaller for matching the hatch", and also many professional guides "swear" by using one size smaller as opposed to the actual size of the bug hatching. Question here being is it necessary to carry for 14-24 mayflys the same pattern in each of size 14-24 or can I get away just about as well with using 16 (for size 14 and 16 mayflys), 20 (for size 18 and 20 mayflys), and 24 (for size 22 and 24 mayflys) to cover that same 14-24 mayfly range? I absolutely agree fly size is extremely important, but more so in the context that the fly you're using can't be larger than the natural on the water, same size is obviously the general rule of thumb, but does one size smaller work just about as well (or even more effective as mentioned with some professional guides swearing by the tactic)? In my experience it has but I, when using such a limited # of flies to begin with, do at least consistently stick with the "correct" sizes at least however I am starting to doubt, based on what I mentioned above, if I couldn't just fish every other size and do just about as well. What do you think?

Question 4: if I carry sizes 16-24 for my fly patterns I can fish all those on 6x leaders and then I only need to buy 6x and 7x tippet which I like as 8x is too thin anyway and I break off far too many fish on the hookset to where it's pretty much worthless to fish it with the 9ft 5 weight I use everywhere. Question here however is i'm starting to think fishing a 12ft leader for the dries should be standard as opposed to the more common 9ft as often people will fish a 9ft 5x leader without success and then drop 2 or 3 feet of 6x off it and then al of a sudden "be successful". Obviously the 6x has lower capacity to impart drag on the fly so I have no doubts with that, but based on my experiences on the Farmington fishing Tricos last August. I used both 7x and 8x 9ft leaders was considerably less productive than when I fished a 12ft 7x leader. Makes me wonder if the extra 3 feet of leader is actually what helps people be more productive majority of the time as opposed to dropping down from 7x to 8x in the same situation. What do you think about this? In other words over the span of a season just for argument sake what would be more productive for dries if you could only fish one of the two set-ups: a "12ft 6x leader" or a "9ft 7x leader"? Essentially, is the 12ft vs. 9ft aspect of a leader likely of greater significance to the 6x vs. 7x aspect of that same leader when fishing dry?

Question 5: Lastly, when I fish streamers (namely my Black weighted zonker size 8) could I just get away with buying 8lb flourocarbon fishing line this year, cut-off 7 1/2 feet of line, tie a perfection loop to the end of it, and then have that be an efficient enough leader for throwing my streamers? or do I need to actually stock up on 2x leaders as well?

Thanks,

-Mike

[AaronJasper]

You made my head hurt with that one. if you make the Adams in the colors to math each hatch you should be fine. Also, make all of the other flies with the exception of the Griffith's gnat to match the proper hatch you should be fine.

I'll get to more later as I am sure that others will to. I am heading out to fish and shoot a little video right now.

[Duck-butt Chucker]

Alright how about this then:

Question 1: If I fish a CDC Adams Comparadun tied on a scud hook in my eyes this seems close enough to what the general shape of the serendipity resembles to where I think it can also effectively pass for a caddis emerger the vast majority of the time. Do you believe this to be true?

Question 2: if the same size as the natural or one size smaller typically works can I get away with just carrying every other size (ie; size 16 to match 14 and 16 size mayflys, size 20 for 18 and 20 size mayflys, and size 24 for size 22 and 24 size mayflys)? How often do you fish one size smaller than the naturals (for whatever the reason) and to what success rate?

Question 3: what is of greater significance when fishing dries to pressured trout, using a 12ft vs. 9ft leader or dropping down one leader size from 5x to 6x? I'm starting to believe leader length fishing dries to heavily pressured trout might be of greater significance than dropping down one leader/tippet size. What do you think?

Question 4: when I fish streamers (namely my Black weighted zonker size 8) could I just get away with buying a spool of 8lb flourocarbon fishing line, cut-off 7 1/2 feet of line, tie a perfection loop to the end of it, and then have that be an efficient enough leader for throwing my streamers? or do I need to actually stock up on 2x leaders to fish them well? or is there some better cheap alternative you'd recommend instead?

[AaronJasper]

Yes the CDC Adams will pass as a caddis. But at that point it's a Klinkhammer

I would tie my flies in every size BUT tie each one on the same style. For example If you use a 2488 for the curved shank fly tie them from a 10-24 do not skip sizes. I am sure you read something about that in a magazine a few months back.... Throw it in the trash or rip the pages out

Dropping tippet sizes and lengthening your leader will help you be more productive when fishing to pressured fish.

To the last question... Yes you can do that with your leader when fishing streamers. Pick up the latest issue of American Angler. It's in there

[Duck-butt Chucker]

Alright thanks Aaron I appreciate it

In regard to every other size stuff I just base that on my own experiences more than anything else, but if you know of a magazine article on such a concept I’d definitely take a look at it. When I fish Farmington during Tricos I always use a 26 Griffith’s gnat of all things and have excellent success with the 24 Trico’s on the water and I have at times during 16 sulfer hatches ran out of 16 Adams CDC Comparaduns and used 16 sulfer parachutes with minimal success, then switched over to 18 CDC Adams comparadun with equal to better success than fishing the 16 version for size 16 mayflys. This is why I bring it up. I also fished a 24 Griffith’s Gnat during the 22 black caddis hatches on EB Croton right under the bridge in bath tub pool where they get pressured heavily and was very successful with it as well so this is why I ask what other peoples success rates are fishing a fly one size smaller than the natural as the times I’ve done it I’ve had plenty of success in doing so. Rob Lewis also mentioned to me once that a number of professional guides out west swear by the tactic of fishing one size smaller than the naturals so this is why I figured I’d ask about what your own experience with fishing dries one size smaller than the naturals.

[reeler]

I think a long leader would be the first thing. Al Troth(elk hair caddis) used 5' tippets on the Beaverhead. John Mingo's Fly Fishing The Montana Spring Creeks presents interesting concepts for fishing tough fish including long tippets.I know some who use a 16 spinner during a Trico hatch with decent success. PMDs overlap Trico hatches in my neck of the woods.

[Magnet]

Its great to see Duck-Chucker adding his expertise to the forum. His posts are well thought out and complex and I usually have to read them a couple of times but they are most definitly informative.

[TroutFishing]

Its goign to take a bit for me to digest all this. I thank you guys for sharing, but I guess I fish for trout the simple way??

[Troutfisher]

Rather than hook size and style, concern yourself more with the length of the shank...it's a better gauge. In fact, the late Alan Bramley of Partridge was a big avocate for using the hook shank as the sizing factor for hooks rather than gape. In my opinion you would probably be successful in taking trout with an Adams CDC Comparadun during a Sulphur hatch if your presentation is flawless and timed right. I'm of the opinion that presentation is more important than pattern, and I've said that before on this and other websites. Fact of the matter is well-known angling personality and author Ed Van Putt has established a Godly reputation using nothing but a #16 Adams during a Sulphur hatch. Your Adams would easily pass for an emerger, cripple, or even a caddis.

Long, fine leaders will enhance your presentations. A length of flurocarbon spinning line for streamer fishing is fine and what many guides use. Just make sure it's heavy and stiff enough to turn your streamer over, or cast a wider loop.

It looks like you have everything pretty much figured out and simplified. One suggestion I would make is to add some size #14 CDC Adams to better cover larger insects like the Hendricksons and Isos.

Just my opinions.

[Silver Creek]

Alright how about this then:

Question 1: If I fish a CDC Adams Comparadun tied on a scud hook in my eyes this seems close enough to what the general shape of the serendipity resembles to where I think it can also effectively pass for a caddis emerger the vast majority of the time. Do you believe this to be true?

Question 2: if the same size as the natural or one size smaller typically works can I get away with just carrying every other size (ie; size 16 to match 14 and 16 size mayflys, size 20 for 18 and 20 size mayflys, and size 24 for size 22 and 24 size mayflys)? How often do you fish one size smaller than the naturals (for whatever the reason) and to what success rate?

Question 3: what is of greater significance when fishing dries to pressured trout, using a 12ft vs. 9ft leader or dropping down one leader size from 5x to 6x? I'm starting to believe leader length fishing dries to heavily pressured trout might be of greater significance than dropping down one leader/tippet size. What do you think?

Question 4: when I fish streamers (namely my Black weighted zonker size 8) could I just get away with buying a spool of 8lb flourocarbon fishing line, cut-off 7 1/2 feet of line, tie a perfection loop to the end of it, and then have that be an efficient enough leader for throwing my streamers? or do I need to actually stock up on 2x leaders to fish them well? or is there some better cheap alternative you'd recommend instead?

My view is that when trout feed, they are not automatons. I've said this many times before. Feeding is a POPULATION based BEHAVIOR. Even when fish are feeding selectively, this behavior is population based. If I am correct, then even when fish are feeding selectively, some are feeding on duns and some are feeding on emergers. If the hatch is heavy enough, I think they some may even become selective to a stage of emerger.

So my answer to question #1 is no. I think a serendipity has a very specific ribbed body without a tail or shuck. I've found that serendipities are very effective when fished deep. They are an earlier stage of emerger than a CDC comparadun so these two flies are not the same. Will they work identically? I don't think so.

To question #2 I would answer no, especially in the sizes that you have asked about. As the hook size gets smaller, the differences in hook sizes becomes relatively larger. Not only that but in small hook sizes, the fish perceives the eye of the hook to be part of body of the fly. THAT is the reason that a hook that is one size smaller works better, than in the larger hooks, where the fish perceive the shank length as the length of the fly.

So in small size it is more important to have every size of fly, not less important.

Allow me to say that even if the above were not the case, the answer would still be no. The premise is faulty. Let us assume that in all sizes of naturals, a smaller size works better. So if we only carry a size 16, 20 and 24 flies, skipping the 18, and 22; what would you do if the natural is a size 20? The best fly would be a size 18 which you don't have. So regardless, you should carry the sizes of flies that best fit the natural.

To question # 3, I believe it whether you go longer in leader length vs a thinner tippet depends on whether you are fishing on a lake or a stream, and whether on the stream you are fishing upstream or downstream.

On a lake, I go longer because the splash of the line can spook a fish that maybe near the fish you are casting toward, and that fish can spook the fish you are after. So the longer the leader, the further the line splash will be from your target.

In a stream, the main reason we go down a size in tippet is not for less visibility but for greater limpness. That is exactly why the George Harvey leader works. The end of the leader is too limber to straighten so it falls in sinusoid curves. So think of limpness rather than diameter. When fishing upstream, I want a tippet that is limp enough to drift long enough to catch the trout. How long and limp depends on the situation.

When fishing downstream with a parachute cast, the fly is "fed" to the fish and the tippet is straight. The fly gets to the fish first so that the diameter is not as important. Plus if you hook the fish and it is big one, you need to bring the fish UPSTREAM to you so a stronger tippet is of benefit. So in this case I would first try a longer stronger tippet rather than go down to a weaker thinner tippet.

For question 4, go to a straight leader of regular spinning fluorocarbon on a full sinking or sink tip line. If you use a floating line, each pull on the line will pull the fly up.