Fishing the redds: Lake Run vs Stream

[VTflyfishing]

I am going to look at this from a couple of different point of views.

The States point of view: The reason the hatcheries stock thousands and thousands of fish into the Salmon River is to attract anglers of all kinds. Trophy fisherman, Catch and Release and fisherman that eat fish. The fall brings the most amount of people over to Pulaski area. Not only does the DEC take in a lot of money from license sales but the small businesses depend on the fisherman. So if they close the spawning areas to fishing this may discourage people from going to these small towns and spending money.

Low income/lost of job: As we all know things are tight right now in our economy. Some people buy a fishing license so they can eat/feed there family. Some people do depend on filling there freezer to have food for the winter. When it breaks down to survival is it really that bad to take fish off there redds. Yes you can argue there is state funding for people out of the job but some people are to proud to ask for help.

The person who gets to fish a few times a year: Some people only get to fish a few times a year. They see fish and the try to fish for them they may not know they are fishing for spawning fish.

Old habits die hard: As Torrey said the great lakes fisheries has traditionally been a spawn run fishery. It was not that long ago snagging was aloud. Some people have the mind set that you can only catch fish that are on the redds. They think that spawning fish do not bite. That might be the case for salmon after they have spawned but not the case for trout.

My Opinion: I honestly do NOT care if people fish the redds. I think they should be practicing catch and release. But if they don't that is there right to keep any fish within the laws. I do not think it hurts fish to be caught of a redd and released back to it. I do agree with walking all over the redds is very bad, If the concern is so much about wild fish why don't we group together and take down dams and restore habitats. Its easy to give these people a hard time about there fishing ethics but not so easy to change the past.

[Davyfly]

A very interesting subject matter is this and for many a very emotive one.
It does at the end of the day relate to two issues morals and ethics.

The reason why in the UK we close Trout and Salmon rivers is simply this. They are rivers and lakes that for thousands of years these species have naturally propagated.
By and large even today they are not stocked systems. Man made reservoirs are a different story as here stocked Rainbow trout do not naturally spawn.

We see here in the US very different history, due the the fact that there lake systems the species were introduced.
In some case we do see good natural reproduction, in others they are more or less totally supported by stock fish, and that is largely where the rub lies, they generate many millions of dollars and there is seen no need to restrict angling activity.

The last figures l had from USFW were that for each trout stocked the economic value amounted to around $3.25 per fish.

My view is this. Fishing for trout or Salmon while on redds l have no interest to do.
If we are dealing with river systems that there is a sustainable natural reproduction then would rather see the known zones those fish spawn closed down for the periods required, which is for Browns Nov to end of Jan, they do not all spawn in November, water temperature and DO levels are big issues here.
In the case of Bows, the natural spawn time would be during the spring, and that is the case for fisheries when there is good natural reproduction.
If fish are hatchery raised, and introduced the odds of any survival are very minimal as often as not these fish do not spawn at a time when there is chance of survival of the sac fry. Again today it is very much both related to screwed up genetics related within the hatchery system
having to raise brood stock to produce eggs 12 months of the year for growth and programmed fishery management for stocking.
In the past this was not so much a issue, in those days eggs were only obtained from brood stock during the spring period.

Other than that, for a fact we do lose many trophy Browns here on the White due to those fish when on the redds being hammered, many of which are foul hooked, either by accident or deliberate, for what, a glory picture, l might add l know of some guides who are in that category, for simply the reasons to add PR for business !!!

I have seen some of the worst behaviour from Fly fishers when fishing over redds, near on fist fights, unreal.
Yet many of those are members of TU,FFF and and FF clubs that then bitch the Fish and Wildlife do not do enough to enhance the fishery management or provide adequate enforcement.
But see no wrong to hook trout out from redds when they should be left alone. Trophy fish are killed and the redds are destroyed, leaving zero chance of any progeny to survive.

If we are dealing with Pacific Salmon that have zero chance to survive or spawn, l guess at the end of the day its down to how you value your fishing ethics.
What l do find strange is when l see a angler hold in admiration a fish that is going to die in a matter of days, or may well be at that point when it was foul hooked, l have seen it take place.

DW

[SlowNDeep]

In streams which are dependent on hatchery stocking - there should be no differentiation - and no board politics pressuring those who fish to the spawners. In self-sustaining streams, the rivers should be closed during spawning.

The Farmington, for example, is a Disney-like trout park, with heavy stocking. Many of the larger stocked trout feed on Salmon fry and parr. To think that they are not doing the same to trout fry is silly. Therefore, I would suggest that if you wish for a sustainable wild trout population (or wish to protect the progeny of spawning trout - which is the concern about wading through redds, correct?), you cease stocking and close the river from October through December. This, of course would truly make the Farmington a challenging and technical fishery, and those who currently think of it as such will fail to catch the fish and cry to the state that there are no fish there.

[LopatNympher]

Ok, I saw some redds for the first time today. I guess I've seen them before but never really thought of what they were. This is the first time I've trout fished this late into the year. There was a group of about 7 or 8 redds in this particular stretch of the creek and from what I could see there were some massive fish sitting on them. I was really tempted to casts some flies to them but I refrained and went upstream to catch some stockies.

[nutman]

[quote author=Adam link=topic=3726.msg28502#msg28502 date=1256744814]

That is why the areas arent closed off in the first place cause wild fish put a dent inb the income of hatcheriers . Rednecks like that just dont understand cause they want to show off that they are the best fishermen in the world or something .

what do you mean Adam ? Im going to tell you ive met tons of these idiots on the river .if you dont like what i posted to bad but it is true these guys are ignorant red necks plain and simple they are the guys who dont care about anything except catching the biggest fish possible in the easiest way .Hell ive watched them out here snag fish out of brush piles ,and then think they are awesome or something .It is a redneck mentality .most are bait or gear guys as well and litter all over the banks ,you can go to any gear chucker area here and in New Jersey and find their trash there .

as predicted this thread is now sliding downhill fast.
[/quote]

[Adam]

removed...I should not have posted it in the first place.

[TexasChris]

ouch

[nutman]

Thanks slow and deep much love ,i guess you drive and audio and fish on reds ,Im not a super man at spelling ,but atleast im smart enough to know not to fish over spawning fish . It shows the mentality of people on this site at times .
Im on your side ,not against you but a number of times you have tried to put me down on here . I was on this site long before you and Adam. I have helped alot of people on this site .
You dont know me so you can say what you want ,but Ive heard enough of how guys are real fishermen on here who fish over redds and fish at the pequest dumping hole .

How many of you are even going to a TU meeting and trying to change things ,oh and I've seen plenty of subaru and audi fishermen who litter and leave crap everywhere ,my point is try to put yourself above them but i guess you can only have negative things to say about me because you have nothing else better say slo and deep !

[Walshmiko]

Dam I got nailed, I Must be the trashs littering audi owner.. Everyone has there own veiw on fishing ethic's, We should respect everyones decision when to and where to fish without finger pointing..

[SlowNDeep]

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
Thanks slow and deep much love ,i guess you drive and audio and fish on reds ,Im not a super man at spelling ,but atleast im smart enough to know not to fish over spawning fish . It shows the mentality of people on this site at times . [/quote]
I listen to audio, and do not fish on colors.

As I said earlier, If you want to protect spawning trout. close the river, and don't stock 2 year old hatchery rats.

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
Im on your side ,not against you but a number of times you have tried to put me down on here . [/quote]
I have commented on your spelling and incoherent sentences before. Perhaps you should reread what you write before posting. Try the preview button.

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
I was on this site long before you and Adam. [/quote]
You registered for this site on 11/28/07, I registered 2/8/07; roughly 9.75 months before you.


[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
I have helped alot of people on this site . [/quote]
Perhaps you have, what's your point? Do you suspect I haven't?

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
You dont know me so you can say what you want ,but Ive heard enough of how guys are real fishermen on here who fish over redds and fish at the pequest dumping hole . [/quote]
Have you ever heard of or seen me fishing the Pequest? I don't even know where it is. I don't generally fish over redds, but was on the Deerfield last week and was catching several hatchery rats on egg flies. I know fish are spawning in there, so do you think I should stay away? The river was at 2000 CFS and off color, and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts allows fishing year round.

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
How many of you are even going to a TU meeting and trying to change things ,oh and I've seen plenty of subaru and audi fishermen who litter and leave crap everywhere ,my point is try to put yourself above them but i guess you can only have negative things to say about me because you have nothing else better say slo and deep !
[/quote]

Your point earlier was to call those who fish differently than you rednecks. My point to Adam was to not argue with you because you are unable to present a clear thought process. You simply spout off without fact to back your opinion, sorta like you being on the site before me, and resort to a thug mentality when someone offers a differing opinion.

If you would like to discuss the ethics of fishing over redds, I'm open to have that conversation. However, if you want to resort to name-calling with those who disagree with you, I'm just going to continue pointing out the irony of a guy who can't spell calling others rednecks.