Czech or Polish Nymphing

[Nymphmeister]

Welcome to the forum Fox, I've enjoyed visiting your website & reading your articles. It's always enlightening to hear what someone who is an "out of the box" thinker has to say.

Most of us on this forum are coming from a backround of indicator nymphing, that is our "comfort zone". I'm always looking for different and (hopefully) better ways to do things. Sharing ideas with experienced fishermen from different areas & backrounds usually produces some great discussions & new ideas.

[Nymphmeister]

Fox-
How do you typically set up your leader when strike indicator nymphing?

[Fox Statler]

I use very long leaders, sometimes over 20 feet when fishing deep water. First I superglue the leader into the fly line. I don't want a knot going through my guides if the fish runs when I get it in close to the bank. I like to start with a about a 12 foot 2x or 3x leader and then buiild from there. I do it by skipping an "x", like: start with 3x leader, add 5x, then 7x. It is not important that the leader turns over because I want to turn it over when I want to. Using a long leader that doesn't turn over by itself lets me make the nymph smack the water or land like a butterfly. This is important when fishing weary browns that hear so well. If 7x is my tippet then I put a loop in the 5x and a loop in the 7x and then loop them together. This makes replacing the tippet faster and allows me to change the length of the tippet quickly.

Now the bug - if the majority of the bugs in the stream are #14's then I will usually use a #16. I find that I catch more fish and catching more fish means catching more large fish. Nymphing is simple statistic at work. If 1 in 20 fish are over 24 inches, then I need to catch a hundred fish to catch 4 over 24 inches. You can change this by sight fishing for larger fish if the conditions allow it. Back to the bug. If you are loosing too many fish with a small bug, first offset the hook and see if this improves your catch ratio Scuds bodies when flattened horizontally take up most of the hook gape, especially in the smaller sizes. Offsetting the hook or turning the fly one-quarter turn on the hook will solve the problem. If this doesn't help then go one size larger. And I mean one size larger like from a #18 to a #17. You say they don't make nymph hooks in odd sizes, I don't use nymph hooks. Dry fly hooks have finer points and smaller wire. They penetrate the flesh and bone of the fish deeper and eaiser. They are the hook of choice for small tippets. I tie my bug on in the hook-point-up (hpu) position. Why? Because I am going to fish the bottom and I don't want to be hanging up. Nymphs glide across the bottom, not jerk along. 90 percent of all bites happen in the bottom water of a stream, that is why I am a nymph fisherman. I usually use two bugs my weighted bug then an unweighted bug about 14 to 18 inches below it. I always tie my droppers right on to the hook of the weighted fly. I have a reason for this.

Now the indicator - I like very small indicators that are longer than they are wide. I make my indicators out of "Double-Side-Sticky, Closed-Cell-Foam, Picture Mounting Tape", You can buy it at Walmart in the school supplies or the paint department. Make sure you get Closed Cell. Brands like Nanco, Bulldog Jordan, and American are closed cell. 3M tape may or may not be closed cell. I prefer the one-half inch wide because a one-half inch indicator is great for size #16 and smaller nymphs. You can split the tape to make indicators for larger nymphs.

Where you put the indicator depends on the water. I try to place the indicator at the depth where "the strike is going to happen". I am sure you are saying everybody knows that, stupid. No they don't. If you are fishing below a riffle, the water goes from shallow to deeper. The fish may be in the middle of the run and not in the deepest portion, set it at the depth where the fish are. If you are fishing a tail-out the fish may be in the shallow portion above the riff, so I set my indicator very shallow. In pocket water, I set my indicator is set below the bottom and I use an over-sized indicator so the fly drags over the shallow and falls into the pocket. In most cases it is not important to get to the bottom of the pocket, but just below the current water. If it is important to get to the bottom of the pocket then use this technique. Stand upstream of the pocket, position the nymph slightly above the lip of the pocket and let nymph drift by "reach casting" the line to feed the drift of the indicator. The bug falls first and faster into the pocket because the indicator is feeding it line. When the indicator turns around, the bug has hit bottom or has been swallowed, get ready to set the hook. That is why you never use a round indicator because you can't tell when balls and bubbles are spinning, but you can sticks.

There is so much more to this, I guess I should write a book on dead-drifting with an indicator.

Foxs Statler

[Nymphmeister]

Always interesting to hear how another die-hard nympher sets up his rigging, thanks for the input. The way we set up our leaders can often be the difference between a poor day and a great one, or a day of little fish or one with trophies.

I know you prefer not to use split shot. When you have to use it, where do you prefer to place it for a 2 fly rig?

[Fox Statler]

If I have to use a split-shot I place it half way between the indicator and the weighted nymph. I use Dinnsmore Double-Cuts and wrap the tippet aroung the bottom shot. I use #6 or #8 shot and keep adding above the wrapped shot until I get to the bottom, then I take one off. This method uses the least amount of weight to get the fly down.

[Nymphmeister]

Question-
Why do you prefer to place the shot mid-leader rather than closer to the fly?

[Davyfly]

First and foremost l fail to understand why Fox would state that some of the nymph techniques described here are myth, ridiculous.
For there are other techniques given the prevailing conditions you are fishing that are more effective without the aid of a indicator attached to the leader. In some cases the use of a attached indicator is worthless.

A indicator is a indicator no matter if you use the fly line or leader system or any other attached means to determine a fish has taken the fly.
In many respects here also it is also related to the ability of the angler to set the system up in the right manner and there after afford the means to fish the fly in such a way as takes can be detected.


Fact of the matter is this. Indicators serve primarily 3 purposes.
They indicate a fish has taken the fly.
They tell you that you have good drift control . Fly line and leader can do same.
They provide buoyancy to allow for a fly to drift at a given depth, which is related to such things as depth, water speed, the length of leader section from the indicator to the fly, the fly weight, added weight and so on.
Which is one of its primary advantages. It enables a fly to track at a given depth for long periods of time. Other methods of nymph fishing do not demand that this is the case.



I will agree that any fly with or without weight will eventually hit the deck, that is determined again by weight, water speed and depth. so far as how far downstream that will take place.
What we do when fly fishing is to set up a system that allows for the most prioductive time the fly be presented at a given maintained depth which is productive.

Many years ago a friend and l spent a considerable time establishing many factors that relate to the use of indicators and how the drift of a fly will be seen given how you have set the rig up for the same water being fished. As leader/tippet length, weight factors and mono diameter used are all influential factors here. That is also related to the distance you are allowing for that drift to take place. Wade fishing as a rule determines short drifts, boat fishing allows for very long continuous drifts, each requires a different approach.

I will agree with Fox that how you make the initial presentation of the rig will also have a bearing on how the fly will be presented for the period of time it will be fishing in a productive mode. Does it achieve depth quickly or is the influence of downstream drift eliminating by a large margin that to take place.
Further to this much also is related to how the angler deals with the fly line as that is more or less the direct link to what ever else takes place below the surface.

Surface water as a rule moves faster than that at the stream bed, there may be some variations here depending on the hydraulics that take place within the water column.
So in that respect a tuck cast presentation would differ from one that presents the system in a direct straight line or one that the system lands in a jumbled mess.

Back later guys, have a appointment to go to.

Davy.

[Nymphmeister]

Good stuff Davy, I agree, there is not one best set up, it depends on the prevailing conditions (as you like to say). I can think of situations where I failed to catch fish with an indicator, and then immediately succeeded when I took it off.

[Davyfly]

One of the subject matters we worked on amounted to this, which was to determine weight and length of mono to allow for a fly to fish close to the river bed.
This is also related to how long that drift takes place as during the downstream drift a fly will sink to a given depth related to the influence of how the fly line/indicator is moved also in its downstream drift, or how the angler mends line to avoid excessive drag or retardation of that drift.

I am using a example here assume water depth of 4 ft even and a water speed of say 3 mph.

OK. In order for the fly to get to bottom you have to have at least 4ft from a indicator. If you use a large indicator that will support a great deal of weight with out being pulled under you may be able to get away with 4ft, as here the rig may well hang more or less straight down from the ID.
In practice this would not be a normal means to set up a dead drift nymph rig system, but it does have applications for fishing lakes and still waters as downstream drift is not a issue.
Here we are dealing with what l would term as a suspended rig system.

If you lesson the weight factor the surface drift, will cause the fly to be pulled along at a level way above the river bed.
So in essence weight and leader length is a given factor to achieve depth.
Further to this comes into play the length and diameter of the mono used over and above 4ft.

What we did was to drop flies in a given circle to see how far they would drift before they hit the river bed. This was done without the attachment of mono, a free falling fly.
Given the type of fly and weight which would include the hook, a bead head or lead for the same fly. this gave us further indication within the given drift range of how far each fly would drift before it hit the deck.

What we then did was to attach the fly to mono and a indicator, and do same. What we then found was unless the fly carried excessive weight it did not hit the deck as the indicator due to surface drift pulled the fly along.
We also changed mono diameter and length, which gave us some very interesting data, which more or less also indicated that it was the indicator that dictated the depth a given fly would be allowed to sink, related to surface drift speed.
There for in conclusion here the indicator provided two primary factors.

If we then added fly line into the equation, here again things would differ as we now have a additional influence due to how the surface of the water influenced further how that fly would track at a given depth.

Unless water speed is slow, indicator systems do move a fly downstream faster than say a natural food source, which in most cases is not inert unless it is dead. A natural food source is subject to all manner of movement within the water column. Bugs swim and move within the water column as they move downstream, by comparison our representations attached to mono are a very different deal.

Fox states that indicator fishing is more sensitive to subtle takes than any other kind of fishing because the indicator is directly related to any kind of indication a fish has taken the fly. That any other technique requires a tension to the fly to avoid it hitting the stream bed.

Tension related to indication. If a fish moves a indicator it also has to move the line. Therefore many other techniques used without a indicator allow for take indication within reason, if you have the ability to present the fly in such a way and there after control drift to be able to see the line move. I myself never used indicators till the late 90s. All be it indicators or floats call em what you will have been in use for a few 100 years. I learnt the skills of sight fishing and watching the leader or tippet section. And l still prefer to fish that way to be honest here. Do l see all the takes probably not, but neither will you with a indicator. l also know l will not miss that many within a reasonable range of fishing. I am also utterly convinced that at times a free drift nymph is way more effective particularly when fishing shallow faster water zones, where the influence of a indicator will drag the fly downstream way to fast.
I have also found same when fishing slow water zones when indicators will spook wary fish.
Does it matter that the fly is being moved along on the river bed, not at all provided it does not hang up. That is where the fish would see the bulk of its food source.
Which leads to the next issue of required tension to avoid the fly hitting the stream bed. I know for a fact that largely that does not matter. There are techniques of fishing that demand that the fly does move along the bed of the river, rolled nymph for one, fishing caddis larva, which can be deadly at times.
There is not a need here to have applied tension, you simply let the fly move at the mercy of the downstream drift, as a rule takes are very positive fishing this way, there is a need to apply perfect drift and track with the required amount of belly in the leader to indicate a take.

If Fox or any one else was able to spend time watching many of the worlds nymph masters, and particularly those who fish international competition they would very quickly realise how skillful and fined tuned these guys are at hooking fish in any water situation they are faced with. Fixed indicators are not allowed to start with. It requires a very different knowledge of how to set your rigs up for the zone of fishing you are faced with at that time, l know l spent some 15 years myself fishing international events.

On the matter of indicator choice. I further am convinced that yarn cannot be beaten overall for many reasons if you do use a indicator.

One it sits above the water surface. Which allows for it to be seen easily at close and long range and in very agitated surface water conditions, many of the poly type balls or other shapes restrict visual indication at range and in agitated water.
Remember also if you are wading deep your range of vision is very restricted at range particularly with a indicator that lies very flat to the water surface.

Two, yarn can be fine tuned so that the slightest of indication can be seen. You can also regulate the profile of a yarn indicator to suit your needs.
I personally do not like hi vis colors, often they have the habit of drawing fish to the indicator and they do not see the fly. They may well also deter fish from taking the fly. So more natural shades are my choice here, white being one and then colors of olive, tan , gray and even black at times.

Yarn does not create a audible sound or plop as many other types of indicator will do when they land on the water surface, more a issue when fishing shallow slow moving water zones.

Fly fishing is not a science, it is a skill that will enable with moderate skill levels fish to be caught. On the other side of the coin fly fishing can be demanding of very high levels of skill.

I know of no fly fisher who has no wish to attain higher levels of skill. It is still a issue to me, l learn something every day l fish, all be it l know that a given approach will very likely produce fish. It is largely a matter of how l choose to fish at that time, be it with a dry fly and nymph, wet fly or streamer.

All for now.

Davy

[AaronJasper]

Very interesting points that you bring up. From doing this the last week I can agree that the presentations are not exactly "drag free". I can see how that as long as the flies are not hanging up you get plenty of takes. As for the line pull, it's friction and there really isn't anything we can do unless we take the water out. I mean we can use lighter diameter tipper off of the sighter to achieve minimal friction to get the flies down. Maybe one of the reasons why this is s effective is because you are moving the flies ever so softly through the water and this represents the naturals better.