With or without, strike indicators.

[sholgate]

In my frustration today, I paused and watched some good nymph fisherman. I fished for over 4 hours today with only 2 hook-ups and no fish actually landed. I watch Dave (don't know anything else about him) catch 6 trout and 1 rock bass in the Tulpehocken in 1 hour. He and some other successful fishermen were not using strike indicators.

Me, being new to nymphing, use one of those bright orange twist on indicators because that is what I read about.

1. Am I scaring fish away in a heavily fished area?
2. Am I limiting my depth?
3. Am I (even with pretty good mending skills) not getting a "dead drift"?
4. Should I experiment without like the Jim McLennan article Nymphing Without Indicators recommends.

All comments are appreciated and are logged in as trout education to me.

PS - I did read the posts about the yarn indicators.

PSS - If you live in the greater Reading, PA area and looking to mentor, let me know.

Steven

[LorenWilliams]

Most likely one of two things:

1) you are not counteracting (eliminating) current drag and therefore the fish never see your flies properly (slow enough or long enough). Just because you have an indicator does not mean you fish it and not the flies--far too many novices make this mistake.

or

2) there is too much slop between your indicator and flies and you are just not seeing the takes.

A mentor is invaluable to any fly angler!

[Walter1023]

Hey Sholgate....Aaron is the expert on this so you should wait for his reply. It may be that you don't have enough weight on your flies and they are not getting down to the bottom.....you can basically spend all day drifting flies way above a trouts head...if he's not looking up he'll never see it. If you rarely got snagged on the bottom - or not at all - thats a likely sign you were not even near the bottom. Or...if you have a big foam indicator - and don't have enough line between it and your flies...it may be artifically suspending your flies too far above the bottom. You should read Aaron's article (on this website) about indicator nymphing. I first starting nymphing without a strike indicator last week on a smaller stream in the croton watershed (been flyfishing for 7 years)....and did it again yesterday. I like it - and in that situation i've been sucessfull...but...I also am shortening my leader/adjusting it so the end of my flyline becomes my indicator. I still have alot to learn about this style but I like it so far. On bigger rivers like the Housy - especially if my flywill be down 4 feet or more...I'm sticking with indicators.

[LorenWilliams]

Guys: I have spent a great deal of time observing feeding trout, both by media and direct observation. I'd like to make a few comments for you to with what you please...

1) With the exception of an oddball rooting fish or a trout that takes a crayfish--I very rarely see trout feed down. Almost all feeding is done laterally or above.
2) foodstuff if the drift does not track in a straight, direct route downstream. It is bouncing, dipping, stopping, reversing direction. Why is this important? I strongly feel that inappropriate use of weight or tippet, be it too much or too stiff/short, acts to "harden" a presentation. Also, NEVER be afraid to WORK YOUR FLIES! If you spend time watching top-level anglers, they will commonly move their flies.
3) Trout take in just about anything that even remotely resembles food when they are actively feeding (seeking food) and will react to triggers when not actively feeding (in resting lies). The crux is that they simply expel much of what they discover to be non-food very quickly.
4) I am convinced that aside from just outright terrible presentation, most anglers fishing subsurface get far more takes than they ever realize--do in part or in full to a blend of being out of touch with their flies or simply loss of focus due to lack of confidence.
5) Too many anglers never learn how complex a stream environment is with regards to hydraulics or fluid dynamics. Because so, much of the very productive water never gets fished correctly--or at all. Understand that the current slows, and often reverses, as you get closer to the stream bottom.
6) Strike detection is the proverbial pot of gold we are all seeking to perfect. In many cases a floating indicator is a nemesis...in some cases it is a godsend.

[sholgate]

Nemeisis and God Send.

Lets talk a bit about bug and weight distance. Pending who you talk to, some say about 6" some say 12". To me that is a huge difference. Too short would seem to constrict "natural" movement, yet too long would make too much "slop" to impede the strike. All I know is I generally do not catch as many fish as some around me.

[LorenWilliams]

[quote author=sholgate link=topic=1574.msg11294#msg11294 date=1208712162]
Nemeisis and God Send.

Lets talk a bit about bug and weight distance. Pending who you talk to, some say about 6" some say 12". To me that is a huge difference. Too short would seem to constrict "natural" movement, yet too long would make too much "slop" to impede the strike. All I know is I generally do not catch as many fish as some around me.
[/quote]

My opinion is that if you use shot as your weight form them you should only use enough to break through the surface current...use your casting and line management to finish the deal. When I guide for steelhead where I can only use one fly, shot placed about 8 to 10-inches from the fly. But, steelhead are not exactly difficult fish . When I guide for trout, when I teach about the use of shot I use pretty much dust shot only. I'll put it between my client's point and middle dropper (about 10"). I will then stress presentation and line management and hopefully get them away from using shot altogether, since in most places in the east we can use at least 2 flies. By starting with minimal shot I find I can convince my folks with confidence that reducing the added weight is beneficial.

I also think many guys newer to fly-fishing spend more time fishing resting lies than they do feeding lies because they may be prettier. Also, move around. With water temps now getting out of the 40's the fish will be getting much more responsive...

[sholgate]

I think I must be the worst sub-surface fly fisher, ever. I lost about 20 bugs this weekend and landed nothing.

I tried a woolly bugger in the same place I saw some land about 8 fish in an hour with the same size and pattern the previous evening. This time I used a longer leader (about 8&#039, one split shot (with two I was loosing every other bug), and was hardly have any fly line in the water. I watched my line and could feel the weight ticking along. Granted I was only in a little over an hout before some lighting chased me out, but I only have one really hard hit. As a mater of fact I saw a flash of trout from the take and it was over, he broke my tipit.

I am a bit frustrated.

[AaronJasper]

Where did you fish? When I get home I will figure this out. I am on the Tappan Zee Bridge now lol!

[sholgate]

I was on the Tully where the Cacoosing and Tully meet. Overcast skies, a little rain.

I love that bridge. Cross it when I judge band shows in CT.

[AaronJasper]

Sholgate,

For weight to fly distance I usually space them about 12"-15". Also this varies by the waters I fish. I space them accordingly to what I think the average size fish is going to be. The idea with this is that the fish cannot roll around and foul itself on the second fly. I think that for stream trout 6" is too little. On heavily pressured streams like the Tully I feel that this can make a difference. Also, selecting the right weight so that your presentation is not impeded by too much weight is the most important thing. DO NOT feel that you need to be in constant contact with the bottom of the stream. This is especially true in shallow riffles with there are plenty of in the Tully. What size shot are you using there? I would be using #4 or 6 Dinsmore tin shot. When are you going next?