Match the Hatch... Fact or Fiction?

[AaronJasper]

SC,

Is Gary coming to the Fly Tying Symposium in November?

[Silver Creek]

I don't know. If you tell me the location and dates, I can ask him and get back to you.

[Davyfly]

To what Davy said I would add the following. Whatever trout do, it is a population based phenomena. The reason I make this point is that whether we are catching a fish or not, we often assume that all the fish are doing the same thing and clearly in any biological system of animals, that is not the case. When we catch a fish, we caught a fish that was susceptible to what we did.
Silver.

Yes, l could not agree more but would add further comments here.

Some of the many issues that require further consideration from the angler are very much related to seasonal issues as this has a very strong bearing for three main reasons, primarily time of year/ water temperature/species as these are all very much related to how or why trout will respond to a given means or method of fishing, which includes fly choice
There is definitely a relationship here to fish feeding activity.

We all know that during periods of low temperature trout are way less active, we also know that if water temperature is high or DO levels are below 6ppm the same will apply.
They also have a relationship to the availability of food sources, which in turn is also related to fish feeding activity.

To follow on.

[Davyfly]

That said granted there are exceptions to the rule if for example fish have become acclimatised to a specific water environment that may well be above or below the general norm.

Regarding the issue of color perception for flies used, no one will convince me otherwise that fish do not have the perception to distinguish color definitions. Say what you will l know they do and can.
Regardless if that fly is constructed with natural material or the addition of man made materials, which includes those that are fluorescent or exhibit afterglow effects. How or why l cannot answer to be exact, but l know for a fact that if certain flies are used under given prevailing conditions the odds of catching those fish are way higher provided you present them in the appropriate manner, which is very much a large percentage issue in the equation.

To further is argument.
And l will use traditional style wet flies as examples.

Lets say we look at this list of ten flies.
Butcher
Alexandra
Peter Ross
Invicta
Whickhams fancy
Hares ear
Black Gnat
Mallard and Claret
Grouse and Green
Cock y Bonddu

From this list there would rarely be a day one or more of these will not catch fish , be it river, stream or stillwater.
What is now the consideration is why.
For a fact color is a issue as all of these flies differ, we may also find that if say 3 are used that one is the more favoured.
now this may well be due to its position on the team of three, or it may be that the fly in question is the primary that triggers a response from the majority of fish caught. On the other hand it may be a day that all three are catching.


Will get back to this tomorrow guys, we have a big storm moving in.

DW

[Duck-butt Chucker]

SC

I don't have a digital camera anymore as it's been out of commission since I got it wet streamside back in may...CDC Adams Comparardun is thin slightly tapered body (some biot are some dubbed doesn't really matter but I prefer the biot), micro-fibbets tail, and solid amount of CDC with a bit of a forward angle...looks very close to the sulfer and BWO CDC Comparaduns they sell at Upcountry along the banks of the Farmington.

No i'm saying your venn diagram lists the life cycle stages of a mayfly so that's what I interpreted it as being directed toward and as a result talked about the mayfly pattern I carry only

I don't use floatant on any of my patterns

Spinner= spent mayfly laying on water dead/dying
Emerger= somewhere in film shedding it's shuck/having just shed it's shuck
Dun= standing on top of surface drying it's wings preparing for take off

Based on time of day/stage of hatch/rise form/the fact that I cast an exact imitation in parachute (sulfer color included) and met refusal after refusal upon inspection..only to switch to the Adam CDC Comparadun and have these same fish inspect and take...reasoning in which I attribute to it is the Comparadun rides lower in the film than the parachute thus better imitating an emerger stage which all the factors available to me showcase they were feeding on...parachute rides higher and better imitates dun/cripple/spinner...but not an emerger...CDC Comparadun rides low in film and (when wing is packed with a solid amount of CDC can also give the profile of a half sunken spinner and has worked effectively for spinner falls as well which I really like this pattern in particular).

I find that they value (either genetically or cognitively likely more of the former) the stage of emergences which have a high vulnerability and in turn most favorable cost-benefit ratios in rising to...accordingly they will not take duns to the exclusion of one of the other two more vulnerable stages (emergers and/or spinners..I don't fish nymphs but i'm sure this applies to them as well) and depending on the density of the hatch they may never switch off emergers at all until the spinner fall begins in which they switch focus to the spinners also over the duns and many times to the outright exclusion of duns...if they are taking duns they are also willing to simultaniously take at least one of the three more vulnerable stages of emergence as the cost benefit ratio in doing so is far more in their favor

Lastly in terms of color trout also see in Infrared and Ultra-violet so who knows what were offering actually looks like to them and furthermore there is also varience within the shade of a specific color of mayfly (some slightly darker some slightly lighter from the mean and when in the shuck they are all darker then after they appear after they emerge) so no exact color matches all of them to begin with...I would say without question color matters to some degree but more as far as light mayfly to match light mayfly and dark mayfly to match dark mayfly I say that the adams functions best as it is neither too dark to pass for a light mayfly nor too light to pass for a dark mayfly so universally speaking in my opinion Grey has the highest probability of being seen as "neither a trigger nor off-putting" and in turn functioning as neutral...furthermore some materials when becomming wet actually become much darker than the color at which you tie them to represent/the color of the actual forage yet still are able to produce consistently...furthermore if you have male and female of the same mayfly on the water (trico, hendricksons etc...varying in color) who's to say that color even plays any appreciable role in those situations or that a more neutral color wouldn't be more productive in these situations as it can pass for either...plus again we don't even know what they see to begin with because their vision is not the same as our in terms of that but is extremely acute in terms of distinguishing size, shape, stage of emergence yet these same fish consistently overlook the aspect of the metal hook blatently jutting out of these same imitations thorax (clearly showcasing it as a fraud to the originals especially in a slow clear water setting) yet still choose to ignore this blatent "flaw in cosmetics" and take the fly anways...however now all of a sudden matching the "exact color" to how *we* see it all of a sudden is of massive importance when again we have no idea what they actually are seeing to begin with cause they also see within the UV and Infrared spectrums as well. That being said in regard to hook presence and it's value in terms of color we know how important size and shape are in terms of fly selection (these are generally considered to be the two most important variables in fly selection) yet all of these same flies have this "blatent flaw in cosmetics" (ie; the hook) and are still taken anyway because the hook remains a neutral characteristic and is not interpreted as "off-putting"...so who's to say that matching the exact color of a mayfly is a necessity as long as that color remains a neutral characteristic and it took is not interpreted as "off-putting"...again especially considering trout don't even necasarily see the color we are showing them the same way as we do to begin with...that's why I don't place a high value on matching color...I honestly think in my opinion that a grey color mayfly tied to the exact same size and body specifications as the mayfly they are presently foraging on coupled with a smooth accurate drag-free drift would always produce just as if not more effectively than the imperfect flies we tie or buy even if they match color more closely since the former is still the more realistic presentation...I understand maybe thats not the popular opinion on the subject but I also don't think that's the most absurd thing in the world either...lastly what's to say in terms of the hopper story you gave that if you started the drift 200 yards upstream and the live hopper had drowned to death and accordingly still floated on top but hung lower in the water column that these same fish wouldn't have jumped all over them as well like they did with your lower riding hopper pattern since the lower hanging component to them connotes greater vulnerability of a free drifting forage...underlying point you don't exactly know that they took your fly because it was unlike the other more typical patterns they consistently see this is just what you infer..maybe it just connotes a greater level of vulnerability by riding lower in the water column and that's why they took it...who's to say fishing a dave's hopper drowned wouldn't have worked based on this same logic even though they commonly "see" and ignore this same pattern all the time riding high on top...underlying point is again you don't "know" that's why they took it this is what you simply infer...sometimes an inference is correct and sometimes an inference is not but also keep in mind the popularity of a specific inference also plays absolutely no role in it's validity

[sipper]

wow Duck Butt, Good stuff. I agee w you regarding color and its lack of importance for smaller flies, but for big may flies color is prob more of an important factor. Size shape and presentation are of most importance when talking small flies and super selective tout. many guys have pointed out that a trout may indeed break its feeding pattern and opportunistically take a caddis or an ant that may drift thru, however a fish aint gonna break its pattern and forgive any drag on a fly that is supposed to be dead. If their feeding on spent spinners they will eat a hamburger before they eat a spent wing that is dragging. If they are feeding on Lil BWO's they will eat a taco rather than eat a BWO that isn't behaving like a BWO. Many flies, like caddis, may require a little action or lite drag to simulate the natural and stimulate a take but then there are some flies that require total dead drift. So many times I have to stop myself from changing a fly and tell myself, "its not the fly its the drag/drift." A few more casts, a little more focus, and sure enough a take on the same fly and tippet that I was about to change. Many folks think they are getting a good drift when in fact they are not. alot of it has to do w ego, alot of it has to do with the fact that micro drag isn't detected by us mortals but is detected by immortal trout that seem to know exactly how long they need to inspect your fly before you gasp for air and ruin the drift. As long as your fly is the correct size and shape, and your tippet is appropriate, the major factor that will turn a fish off is poor presentation and angler error,something that us stubborn fisherman sometimes refuse to admit. volumes upon volumes have been written on casting and presentation but it boils down to a few fixable problems which are: 1) Casting toooo loooong. shorter casts encounter fewer conflicting currents making dead drift easier to attain, so sneak up a little further. 2) No reach cast? its all about the belly. Mastering the reach is the best skill a dryflyer can grasp. The next time someone is bitching about the stubborn trout watch them cast. Chances are they are putting the fly strait down and not really following thru acroos the body w a nice reach. 3) approach, if you are not getting takes when casting upstream to a fish, try manuevering so that you are casting down to it, now it will see your fly first before the leader and the water is doing most of the work which avoids spooking w your line. If your getting your balls busted by stubborn trout try these three fixes before you start changing flies and tippets and giving all ur $ away to Grady.

[AaronJasper]

Sipper,

You forgot the George Harvey "slack cast!"

The problem with the reach cast is that some very important things are left out of the instructions. A reach cast must overshoot the target by a wide margin before the reach is made. If course this depends on how far away the target is. The closer the target the less you need to overshoot the target. Then of course you need to figure out how far above the fishthat the flies need to be presented. This is one of those things that requires a "sixth sense." Some fish require that the flies need to drift for a bit before reaching the fish, while other fish will take a dry as soon as it lands.

One little tip, which is a big one is as soon as the fly lands, throw some slack line out. This will go a long way in preventing drag!

[Davyfly]

Here again we read interpretations of shall we say reasoning why trout refuse to take.
I will only add this and it is with due respect to the 1000s of fly fishers l have guided in 40 years of doing so. like it or not there are very few fly fishers that have accomplished high levels of skill, end of story, and that is one of if not the main reason why the majority suffer the consequences when fish do not oblige with what ever means that angler chooses to fish or they are fishing only within their comfort zone of skill level.

You will not learn to become a skilled angler by what you read or view unless you spend time on the water, period. Further the most skilled fly fishers l have ever had the pleasure to know and fish have many other skills other than the being able to present a fly in the correct manner, many more in fact.
Aside from the required levels of obvious skills in so far as fly choice and means of presentation it is a indefinable instinctive issue.

That said, there are many different points of view regarding how we as humans interpret what we believe is a sound basis of knowledge related to a given subject matter.
Naturally l do not agree with many of those as my own personal experiences tell me otherwise.
Like l previously posted with due respect, l have spent 100s of 1000s of hours in my life fly fishing for trout in many countries around the world, be it small creeks, stream, lakes, loughs, l do not know all the answers and there will never be a man who walks the face of this earth that will.

A man who has fly fished but for a few years, and with a limited number of days on the water no way can accumulate the knowledge and skill of another who has fished on a regular basis for 20, it is not going to happen, assuming that the persons concerned has the indefinable ability to do so, which is not the case for all. Despite that it is the will for us to become way better and learn and that is largely what drives us to become more skilled as fly fishers.
No other can read into another's mind and that is largely the basis of separation. I can tell you what l am doing and why, but that is not going to convey to another the same story of background knowledge that has been accumulated over the years of understanding for time spent on the water, all be it it may well enable the other to benefit in some way for the future.

The experience that Silver posted regarding the hopper was how he saw and dealt with a situation, it was for him a experience which may not occur again, it matters not. he solved a problem and caught the fish. Therefore the comments further to attempt to analyse this are of no significance its simply BS to try and do so. For l could post here a 100s of similar situations which were solved with the end result of hooked fish.


Duck Butt, l have to say l totally disagree with you when you state that matching color is of little consequence, you are way out wrong, and to be honest it is a ridiculous statement to make, but l accept that is how you see it. What l know for a fact is there will be many fish you will never catch.
I have no idea how a fish sees color, but make no mistake my friend it can make a great deal of difference, it matters not, what is the issue is we see a color and by choice use it for a fly and the fish take it, end of story.

I have no interest for those who are book worms, but l have all the time in the world for the man l know who has the years of experience and produces the results with understanding of why.

Back to my post of last night.
The main reason why l made the post was simply to demonstrate that fish within the same environment under given prevailing conditions will make choices given the 10 wet flies l listed.
And l gave that short list as l know from a lifetime of fishing such flies that my statement here is more or less correct, and l would defy anyone to prove me wrong for many reasons one being that there are many ways to present and fish these flies.
Odds are if all are refused then l doubt any other fly would be taken, all be it there may be a fly that would enable more fish to be caught.

Which simply rationalises the statement that not all fish found within the same system think alike, and that is very true.
It is as again l stated how we as anglers choose to view and deal with a prevailing situation.
In other words we see fish rising and ignore them in favor of fishing a streamer, which may well be more productive at the end of the day. On the other hand the risers are ignored because the angler in question doe's not know how to deal with it. Or the fly fishers attempts to catch those fish and for ignored for whatever reason.

If you wish to know how to catch trout feeding on micro chironomids l can well show you how to do it in 10 lessons, what l cannot do is cast you fly and present it in the same manner as l would myself, read the water and behavioural patterns of the trout and so on.
But you can persevere and learn


DW

[Duck-butt Chucker]

“A man who has fly fished but for a few years, and with a limited number of days on the water no way can accumulate the knowledge and skill of another who has fished on a regular basis for 20, it is not going to happen, assuming that the persons concerned has the indefinable ability to do so, which is not the case for all.”- Please you interpret each individual on an individual basis…people can fly fish for 40 years and still not know what they’re doing and people can fly cast for 40 years and still not be able to throw a good loop or give a good presentation…you want to cite your skill and your experience that’s fine…you want to attempt to knock my intelligence however and corresponding capacity to interpret objective fact based on the premise that “you fly fish for 20 years and cast well” frankly that’s absolutely laughable.

“The experience that Silver posted regarding the hopper was how he saw and dealt with a situation, it was for him a experience which may not occur again, it matters not. he solved a problem and caught the fish. Therefore the comments further to attempt to analyse this are of no significance its simply BS to try and do so.”- I was showcasing to him that just because he “infers” something as being successful for a specific reason it does not necessarily mean this inference was also valid…I’m sure he grasped this simple point my apologies if it went over your head…furthermore attempting to understand why something worked or didn’t work actually has quite a bit of significance if an individual has any interest in producing a consistent repeatable end result which makes questioning these same things far from “BS” and "insignificant".

“Duck Butt, l have to say l totally disagree with you when you state that matching color is of little consequence, you are way out wrong, and to be honest it is a ridiculous statement to make, but l accept that is how you see it. What l know for a fact is there will be many fish you will never catch. I have no idea how a fish sees color, but make no mistake my friend it can make a great deal of difference, it matters not, what is the issue is we see a color and by choice use it for a fly and the fish take it, end of story.”- Yea it’s my personal opinion simply based on my experience and based on the logic I gave that when fishing dry color is very often of little consequence..I do not fish wet or nymphs and I stated beforehand that I do not necessarily contribute what I think about color fishing dries on top to being applicable to fishing wets or nymphs underneath plus the depth at which you fish underneath and the clarity of the water (both relative to the depth the light is able to penetrate) is an additional variable which plays a significant role in how fish are able to process color while fishing sub-surface that does not apply to any appreciable extent when fishing on top so I have no idea what citing a list of 10 wet flys has to do with fishing dries…my assertion is simply that an exact imitation of a mayfly in Adams which matches exact same body specifications in terms of size, exact same body specifications in terms of shape, correct stage of emergence, and most importantly is coupled with a smooth accurate drag-free presentation will still consistently be able to take fish, maybe not clean out entire pools, but still consistently take fish even if the color is technically “wrong”…regardless of whether or not you personally agree with that (which I never had any interest in to begin with) it’s also far from a “ridiculous” assertion to make.

“I have no interest for those who are book worms, but l have all the time in the world for the man l know who has the years of experience and produces the results with understanding of why.“- Please buddy..first off I’ve read literally a total of 5 books total since my sophomore year of high school which are the following : “11 seconds” an autobiography of a hockey player named Travis Roy who broke his spine 11 seconds into his college hockey career, an autobiography of James Blake the tennis player, history of the Skull and Bones secret society of Yale, “A Walk to Remember” which is a fiction book, and lastly a biography on Hobey Baker (ie; first great American ice hockey player and that died as a fighter pilot in WWI)…so yea I’m really a “book worm”…like I addressed in one of my prior points just because something “appears” to someone a certain way and then they “infer” something based off of that it does not necessarily mean those same inferences are also valid, regardless of their popularity, as you can see…and lastly the whole reason I even shared my, again personal opinion (which I‘ve never asserted as anything more than that), on the subject is because Silver took the time to draw up a bunch of Venn Diagrams for me to grasp his point and was interested in my contributions on it and further clarification on some of the things I said so that’s why I posted about it…it makes no difference to me whether you personally agree with what I say or not as like I’ve already stated I’m not trying to convince people into fishing like I do (which if you also missed I do largely out of financial necessity as I‘m still in grad school getting my master‘s so I can teach) I was simply giving my opinion to the man as he took the time to draw up a bunch of diagrams and had interest some in what I thought about the subject…then come in and see some post from an unrelated third party insinuating I’m an idiot, “ridiculous“, and “who am I to question why a trout took his grasshopper” on a public internet forum when I‘m having a pleasant discourse with the man…give me a break dude..you are not worth anymore of my time…take it easy

[littlej81]

I caught 3 bass and a carp today.