Upstream Downstream Forward Backaward

[NJFred]

Has it ever struck any of you that with a fairly sharp downstream dry fly presentation we often present the fly backwards with the arse end first (a good friend recently brought this to my attention)? Most duns ride the water face downstream.

If you are will versed in what a trout sees first as a dun approaches him he sees the tip of the wing first... at least with a natural and then the rest of the bug is relieved from top downward as they float toward the fish. They have to see something a little different when floating backwards.

Does anyone think it matters, at least sometimes ? How about with emergers or duns tied with trailing shucks (see the shuck first unlike the natural)? My guess it doesn't matter most of the time but sometimes it might as a fly's silhouette is key to a fishes recognition of food. If so a tie backwards on a hook might be the difference between success and failure.

Any thoughts out there on this topic? Experience with it?

[Silver Creek]

Some flies are tied backward on the hooks just for this purpose. They have never gained popularity.

Does it matter? Maybe but probably not in most situations. I think mayflies definitely orient themselves into the wind. I've been in situations when the a wind blowing downstream caused the mayflies to orient themselves upstream to face into the downstream wind direction.

I've seen mayflies spin when the water they are on is a vortex. So I believe the direction and way a mayfly faces is a combination of perceived wind direction and changes in water surface flow patterns.

I don't think caddisflies orient themselves in any consistent way whether hatching or egg laying. If they do, I'd like to see the reference to this fact.

A trout's central vision is much worse than a humans. We have 14 times the density of cones and rods in our central vison (macula of the retina) than a trout. That is greater than the difference of an eagle's vision vs a human's. So trout see detail very poorly compared to us and they need to get very close and need time to see detail.

I believe most fly fishing situations do not give a trout the opportunity to examine a fly in great detail before it must decide to eat or not eat. If a trout had to look at every piece of possible food that carefully, it would starve because it would waste energy.

A helpful way to think about trout's decision process is the concept of triggers. Triggers are specific apperances or behaviors that the trout look for to decide whether to eat or not eat.

Triggers can be positive or negative. Drag is the big negative trigger. Proper size, shape, color and behavior are positive triggers. Is the direction a fly faces a behavior trigger? I don't think so. I don't think most trout use the direction a fly faces as a positive or negative trigger.

I think of it this way. If a fly facing in the wrong direction caused significant refusals, backwards patterns would be more popular and there would be article about that fact. I just don't think it is important.

[hot4nymphs]

I like your idea and it would be fun to test it out. But would you really have to go to the trouble of tying flies backwards? Couldn't you just tally your upstream presentations against your downstream ones?

[Silver Creek]

[quote author=hot4nymphs link=topic=3152.msg23505#msg23505 date=1243655066]
But would you really have to go to the trouble of tying flies backwards? Couldn't you just tally your upstream presentations against your downstream ones?
[/quote]

With a downstream presentation in tough situations, it is easier to present the fly drag free, easier to place the fly accurately in the feeding lane, and easier to time the fly to reach the the trout according to it's feeding rhythm that with an upstream presentation. Even a poor caster can compensate with a parachute cast and skating the fly into the feeding lane before lowering the rod to deliver the fly.

With a downstream presentation, the fly reaches the fish before the leader. Not so with an upstream presentation. Downstream presentation is the more effective method in tough places like the Henry's Fork. The approach is harder but the cast is much easier.

A comparison of a downstream vs an upstream dry fly success would depend more on the innate advantage of the downstrean approach and not the way the fly is facing.

[AaronJasper]

Just a thought buit maybe this is a reason why they hoistorically fished dries upstream? I am sure a great deal of that had to do with rules on those chalkstreams but maybe it was thought about more than we think?

I know that if you degrease the leader with mud you can present the flies from downstream angles and be very successful. Davy told me once that the reflection of light from the sun off the mono spooks trout. Given my experiences, I have to belive him.

[Soft-hackle]

Hi Fred,Everyone,

First, if you've not seen them before, a friend of mine, Roy Christie, from England, ties many flies backwards and backwards-upside down. Have a look:
http://www.danica.com/flytier/rchristie/rchristie.htm

Roy's flies are quite a revelation, and Roy is a real thinker for sure.

Perhaps, in dry fly fishing, the fly's orientation might make a difference, however many anglers only think in terms of dry flies. Wets, on the other hand work well in a downstream presentation. Why is that?

Second, It's my take that trout, for the most part, are opportunists. If something looks like food and acts like food, it's food, and they eat it. To me, keeping control of the drag in a downstream presentation is much more important than the fly orientation.

It's funny, but at one time, even considering a downstream dry fly presentation would have gotten you stoned with river rocks. To me, however, even though the fly might not be oriented correctly, it often makes more sense. It is also my understanding that caddis flies orient themselves facing and moving upstream, hence Len Wright's Fluttering Caddis presentation.

Mark

PS. I forgot to mention that one of Roy's ideas with the backwards flies is that the leader is pushed below the surface by the way the fly rides, the eye of the hook, riding below the surface.

[NJFred]

Great thoughts all... keep them coming. I think I found a new home as the last board I was on wouldn't even have a reply to this sort of question!

[Silver Creek]

[quote author=Soft-hackle link=topic=3152.msg23521#msg23521 date=1243687313]
Hi Fred,Everyone,

First, if you've not seen them before, a friend of mine, Roy Christie, from England, ties many flies backwards and backwards-upside down. Have a look:
http://www.danica.com/flytier/rchristie/rchristie.htm

Roy's flies are quite a revelation, and Roy is a real thinker for sure.

Mark

[/quote]

Roy Christie is a brilliant fly tyer. Now if I had his flies, I would indeed fish his reversed patterns.

However, Roy true genius is at designing flies that sit just so in and upon the film. From what I've seen, his flies lie low and in the film just like a real emerger. I think his attention to detail in where and how his fly orients in the film is most responsible for his patterns success, and not the reversed direction of the tie.

With such detail to the positioning of his flies in the film, most of the Christie flies I've seen are emergers and not true dries. I believe the purpose of the reverse tie is to use the shank of the hook angling down and away under the film for a realistic presentation of the nymphal body attached to the underside of the film during emergence. It seems to me that he tied his flies in this fashion, not to reverse the direction of the tie, but because it was the best way to present the hanging nymphal body/shuck of an emerger.

Consequently, directionallty would not seem to be as much an issue. I also note that the true dries on his page are tied in the traditional direction.

It would be valuable to have Roy's opinion on what is more important, orientation in the film or direction of the body; and the actual purpose of the reverse tie.

I also notice that Roy designs his flies to keep the hooking gap open and unblocked by the hackle used for flotation. Gap blockage is a problem with dry flies that use standard palmered hackle, with the fly reverse tied on the hook.

[Soft-hackle]

I'll see if I can contact him and get him to chime in on this. When I met with Roy a few years back, he hinted at what you are saying, but he led me to believe that he was trying to get the leader under water, but I suppose he accomplished both getting the body under as well as the leader. I'll see what I can do. I don't know what he is up to at the moment, but I'll try to contact him

Mark

[Silver Creek]

[quote author=Soft-hackle link=topic=3152.msg23531#msg23531 date=1243715811]
I'll see if I can contact him and get him to chime in on this. When I met with Roy a few years back, he hinted at what you are saying, but he led me to believe that he was trying to get the leader under water, but I suppose he accomplished both getting the body under as well as the leader. I'll see what I can do. I don't know what he is up to at the moment, but I'll try to contact him

Mark
[/quote]

Mark,

That would be super. It would be educational to get his opinion. I've looked at his flies for years and marveled at his inventiveness.

I was awed when I saw a variation of his Avon Special that he developed for a midge emerger that mimiced the "U" shaped pattern that the pupa forms to help it break through the mesniscus during emergence. It is demonstrated in this short video.



Midges: Chapter 5 of the "Bugs of the Underworld" DVD