Awareness of your shadow on the water
This time of year, your shadow over the water is something to pay attention to.Its nice to have the sun at your back so you can see what you are doing, but this convenience may come at the expense of a reduced catch rate. If you watch AJ fish on a late fall afternoon, you will notice him making an effort to avoid this, I was just wondering how important shadow projection is? Does the significance of ones own shadow override getting into the best position to fish a particlar pool? Also, if you have limited options as far as positioning, what are some stratigies you employ to still take fish there?
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Magnet-
This was a point of conversation on Sunday morning when I was fishing with a friend on a small WTMA. I always try to keep the sun in my face on the small streams if possible. On bigger rivers, sometimes it is just not feasible. Things I have been caught doing...lining myself up with a tree to take advantage of the trees shadow over the water. I have knelt in water or banks, sat on rocks in the middle of the river to reduce profile, etc.
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
I think there is a definite advantage to having the sun at your back (fighter pilots, at least in the old days before planes had radar, always preferred to approach thier targets with the sun behind them), but certainly not if it projects your shadow anywhere near the water you are fishing. A bird flying over feeding fish can put them down, imagine how the fish will react to a large shadow moving over their water. I am sure that if fish see any unusual movement, whether it is a shadow on the water or your profile against the sky, they will stop feeding and head for cover.
I too, will use shadows from trees, etc. to mask my approach, crouch, get on my knees, whatever it takes to keep both my profile and my shadow from alerting the fish to my presence. I also wade very slowly, not just to keep from disturbing the water but also to prevent small rocks from grinding together under my feet, sound travels very well under water.
Also, I almost always fish upstream (both casting upstream and working my way upstream) when nymphing. This way I am approaching the fish from their blind spot, since they face into the current, and the current helps minimize any disturbances made in the water.
Steve
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Steve,
How are you and Flash doing? Did you guys get out to PA yet?
I will add one fact here for discussion...
Sometimes, depending on the angle of the sun, your shadow can be cast up to and over 30 feet onto the water. What would you do to eliminate spooking the fish?
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Hey Aaron,
Flash and I are both doing okay. No, we never did make a trip to PA, I hope to get out there next year.
Steve
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
I think shadows are very important. They always are, but it depends on where the fish are and how they are feeding. I think we spook a lot of fish especially when we are just fishing the water rather than fishing to a particular fish.
In the fall, I want to fish from below the fish. Even if the sun is at my back, I can see my shadow and I can cast beyond it. But remember to keep the rod low because it casts a shadow as well. The water is lower in the fall, and it is much easier to spook the fish especially when approaching from above the fish. Generally, the only time I will approach from above is if I know I cannot get a cast in from below. Remember that when approaching from above the fish in low water, there is a much, much greater possibility of spooking the fish when you need to retrieve and pick up the line for the next cast.
When you are upstream, all the silt that is disturbed during wading goes downstream to the fish. Fish will spook without you ever knowing it. Low water, downstream silt, and fly line pick up all favor an upstream approach over the position of your shadow.
Just as important as a shadow is the 10° line. This is line under which the images in the trout's window are distorted and compressed. At 25 feet from the edge of the window, you and your rod need to stay below 5.5 feet keep from being recognized.
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Silver Creek,
So you are saying that me being short actually helps me out?!?! That's one of the first times that I heard that being short is a good thing! Is there a formula for the closer distances? That's an interesting tidblit. I usually knell down and crawl quite frequently. I was fishing Spring Creek in the fall when it was really low. I was crawling throug mud and such. I even had the rod in my mouth. I was able to get very close to fish in some very skinny water. I was also wearing camo so I am sure that helped. I mean, it was a lot of work to keep my shadow off the water, but I must say that it was well worth it... even though it was exhausting!
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
No question of doubt your shadow may well spook fish, and so will same caused by your fly line, leader and at times surface fished flies, believe it or not.
Always a good bet to keep a low profile when fishing waters that trout have a greater level of visibility above the water surface, when fishing fast turbulent water not so much a issue.
Fish an detect movement from a great height above them, l do not buy much of what l have read related to what a fish is able to see.
Let me relate this.
I had parked up roadside to look down to the river which was in fact the South Platte, l was at least 40ft or more above those fish which were at the time taking BWO, l was at the time in a position down stream from those fish, as l moved up stream to ward them they spooked and went down.
Now bear in mind these fish were concentrated with a upstream vision to the naturals floating down to them.
This really shocked me. To prove l was the issue l backed off downstream and waited till those fish resumed to feed which they did, again as l walked back upstream they again spooked and went down.
I have had similar experiences when watching fish from bridges above streams.
These were fish l could see, the majority of fish we spook we never see
as issues of light angle, water surface movement distort our visions.
Further they see us before we have a chance to accliamtise out eyesight to see them.
The best FF l know are very cautious anglers who approach a water in a way that is very different to the majority.
DW
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
[quote author=AaronJasper link=topic=3825.msg29634#msg29634 date=1259793113]
Silver Creek,
So you are saying that me being short actually helps me out?!?! That's one of the first times that I heard that being short is a good thing! Is there a formula for the closer distances? That's an interesting tidblit.
[/quote]
The application is simple but the explanation is complicated.
To apply the principle, I use the rule of 6. The rule of 3 determines tippet size to fly size by dividing the hook size by 3 to get tippet size. Similarly, divide your distance from the outer edge of the trout's window by 6 to find how far above the water you can be before being seen. If you are 18 feet way, you need to be lower than 3 feet, at 24 ft, you need to be lower than 4 feet and so on. Simple
The explanation is that when light enters or leaves a water/air barrier it will bend. The next time you are walking next to a clear pool, stick your fly rod into the water and it will look bent at the point at which it enters the water.
Light bends so that when we look at an object in water it will look further away and shallower than it really is. So when you see a trout it is really closer and deeper than it looks to you. That is the bending of light as it leaves the water to your eyes.
When the fish is looking at us through it surface window, light entering the water also bends such that, the light that enters at a narrower angle is bend more. Only the light entering at 90 degrees (directly overhead) to the water surface is not bend. This means that the light that enters from objects at a low angle to the water surface is compressed and distorted. Only when the entry angle is greater than 10 degrees can the object be seen relatively clearly. This is why we need to stay below 10 degrees.
How then does this lead to the rule of 6? It is plain geometry.
Consider the right angle triangle in the illustration below. Suppose the closest edge of the fish's window is at point (a). Angle h-d is 10°. Distance from the window edge is the length of side (d) and the height of the 10 degree line is length of side (h). The tangent of 10° is h/d = 0.1763 so the height you need to stay under is h = (0.1763 ) x d(the distance from the edge of the window). It so happens that the tangent of 10° is about 1/6 or 1.667. Dividing (d) by 6 gives you (h) = the rule of 6.
Notice also in the illustration below that the position of the flying mayfly is shifted closer to the vertical by the refraction of light by the water.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...ee/image4b.gif
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Very nice diagram and explanation. I will look at how the shadow is bent this weekend. So if shadow looks to be 30 feet, it could only be 20-25 feet when it reaches the bottom. And the only time that it is straight is if something passes directly overhead like a fly line or an indicator... Correct?
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
[quote author=AaronJasper link=topic=3825.msg29659#msg29659 date=1259855110]
Very nice diagram and explanation. I will look at how the shadow is bent this weekend. So if shadow looks to be 30 feet, it could only be 20-25 feet when it reaches the bottom. And the only time that it is straight is if something passes directly overhead like a fly line or an indicator... Correct?
[/quote]
Well...... Maybe.
The location of the shadow of a fish is usually at a different location than the fish itself unless the fish is very near the bottom or the sun is directly overhead.
The angle of the sun displaces the shadow of the fish on the river bottom. The displacement is in the opposite direction of the sun from the fish. So if the sun is to the North of the fish, the shadow will be displaced to the South and the amount of displacement will depend on how far above the bottom the fish is holding. Also the lower the sun is in the sky, the greater the displacement.
What the shadow does is to alert us to the presence of a fish. Note the location of the sun in the sky, and the fish will be somewhere in the water along and below a direct line between the sun and the shadow. So if the sun is to the right side of the shadow, I look through the water on the right side below the line from the sun to the shadow to find the fish.
The depth of the fish also changes the size of the window. In the diagram below I have added arrows for the size of the window and the depth of the fish. You will also notice that the angle of the window from the trout's eye is 97.5°. Half of that if 48.75° which is about 45°. At 45°, the distance = r from the center of the window to the edge of the window is exactly equal to the depth =r of the fish. So we can approximate the the size of the window from the depth of the fish. The window diameter is 2r or about twice the depth of the fish.
Note also that the deeper the fish, the larger the window. That means that the deeper the fish, the closer the edge of the window is to you and the lower you must be to stay under the fish's vision.
The size of the window also compresses the image of the outside world into a very limited space that gets increasingly smaller as the fish gets closer to the surface. You can now understand why, when the troutis feeding selectively and holding just under the surface, we can get very very close to the fish. His image of us is limited by the window size as well as the 10° line.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...ee/image4c.gif
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Thanks for the great information. The formulas are easily understandable and the graphs were very good. This will give me something more to throw into my approach to the stream. I think that this is an area where every angler can improve upon greatly. Thinking about these things will even help a newer fly fisherman put him or herself in the best possible position to be successful.
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Ray Bergman once wote about having the sun at your back stating this was to your advantage. Furthering reading Ray stated that the fish had the sun in it's eyes and it visabilty was greatly reduced. Just think of how your eye sight is when the sun is in your eyes. I have tried this experiment and it has worked for me. Now I do believe in shadows do alert fish to the presance of a predator and causes them to flee. I have done this as well on a smaller portion of the upper Willowemoc and spooked the day lights out of a few fish that I could not see while wearing polarized sun glasses. I think this is an interesting topic and am only stating my experiences on stream. I do believe that every ones input that I have read so far is valid and do not doubt there encounters.
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
[quote author=Fontinalis link=topic=3825.msg29802#msg29802 date=1260288273]
Ray Bergman once wote about having the sun at your back stating this was to your advantage. Furthering reading Ray stated that the fish had the sun in it's eyes and it visabilty was greatly reduced. Just think of how your eye sight is when the sun is in your eyes. I have tried this experiment and it has worked for me. Now I do believe in shadows do alert fish to the presance of a predator and causes them to flee. I have done this as well on a smaller portion of the upper Willowemoc and spooked the day lights out of a few fish that I could not see while wearing polarized sun glasses. I think this is an interesting topic and am only stating my experiences on stream. I do believe that every ones input that I have read so far is valid and do not doubt there encounters.
[/quote]
I wonder if what Bergman was observing was the same thing that we see when we take a photo facing the sun. The objects are in silhouette and the discriminating features and colors are in shadow. Essentially, the fisher is camouflaged, since the background and surrounding objets are also silhouettes. So the fish has a problem discriminating, when we stand still and our shape overlaps other shapes. It has no color or color pattern to tell one object from another overlapping objects. The main way of telling one object from another is motion.
I don't think that your visibility is any less. That is determined by the window. It is that the ability of the fish to discrimate through color ane pattern is less.
The fish has the advantage of going deeper to decrease light levels. When at depth, the window is larger.
So I think that whether this strategy works depends on how deep the fish is, the angle of the sun which determines shadow length, and how fast you move. Whether you are in silhouette or not, I believe the fish can still detect motion.
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Not always true. You see the Trout may not have the case to go deeper and the glare is actually what it is. Now if the Trout does go deeper a few things can change drastically. The angle entry of light in the water could amplify thus making the Trouts vision glared or could com the light down and give visability back to the Trout to spot it's subject in the window. Also keep in mind we also have to talk about water clearity which again would either aid or hinder the Trouts viewable window as well.
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
[quote author=Fontinalis link=topic=3825.msg29806#msg29806 date=1260298641]
Not always true. You see the Trout may not have the case to go deeper and the glare is actually what it is. Now if the Trout does go deeper a few things can change drastically. [b]The angle entry of light in the water could amplify thus making the Trouts vision glared or could com the light down and give visability back to the Trout to spot it's subject in the window.[b] Also keep in mind we also have to talk about water clearity which again would either aid or hinder the Trouts viewable window as well.
[/quote]
I intend no disrespect but I don't understand. Perhaps you can go into more detail. My questions and my understanding follows.
Can you explain how you think the angle of light entry changes since the sun's angle above the horizon is fixed whatever the fish's depth? The amount of light entering the water is greatest when the sun is directly overhead at 90 degrees to the water surface. And yet that is when there minimal shadows are cast, and when surface glare is the least.
The depth of the fish does not change the amount of light actually entering the water, it changes the size of the window.
I also don't understand how water increases glare to the fish when they are UNDER the water. And how does your underwater "glare" change with water depth. I believe what causes glare above water is the reflection of light from the air/water interface, ie, the water surface, back into the air. Therefore, underwater glare cannot be caused by above water reflection. There is an water/air interface than can be seen from under under the water that surrounds the window, but since there is no point source of light under the water, there is no "glare from the surface mirror. What we see reflected in this the is bottom of the river.
Above water glare does not cause more glare under the water. Actually, just the opposite is true. The more "glare" or % reflection of light back from the water surface, the less light that penetrates the water surface. So I believe when glare above the surface is great, relatively less light is penetrating below. We know that from experience because when the sun is low in the sky and at an acute angle to the water surface, there is the greatest glare in our eyes and the least light penetration into the water.
By saying that there can be greater light in deeper water, you imply that water does not absorb light. Can you explain that? I've been taught that all water absorbs light, even distilled water. So even in the clearest water there is less light as the fish goes deeper. Water cannot increase the light making it brighter. What it can do is change the spectrum of light by absorbing and scattering light. Water acts as a light filter depending on what is dissolved and what is suspended, but it cannot increase the total amount of light.
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
Silver,
I think Fontinalis was referring to the angle of light, not in a moment in time which would be constant regardless of depth, but rather as a time continuum during the course of a day. Great analysis guys!
Re: Awareness of your shadow on the water
[quote author=Magnet link=topic=3825.msg29847#msg29847 date=1260387894]
Silver,
I think Fontinalis was referring to the angle of light, not in a moment in time which would be constant regardless of depth, but rather as a time continuum during the course of a day. Great analysis guys!
[/quote]
Got it. The angle does change as time passes. When he said he fish did not have to go deeper to escape bright light, I assumed we were comparing light intensity at depth to illumination near the surface.
