Fishing the redds: Lake Run vs Stream

Can someone please explain to me why it is acceptable to fish the redds of lake run browns and spring steelhead, but not fish the redds of stream trout?

I sense a level of hypocrisy here, and it is bothering me. I know this is another sh*tstorm topic and has been discussed for years. I also know I am late to the party on all this stuff.

Disclaimer: I have fished the lake-run redds too.

I just saw this picture on a few other sites:
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...ct/brown-1.jpg
The captions imply that this enormous female was killed for her eggs.

Here we are in CT tip-toeing around a handful of redds in the Farmington, while barely 300 miles away, folks are stomping all over the place.

I have an open mind, but someone please explain the history and legacy of how we have come to this. Thanks.

Is it because the lake-run fish are only available to wade fishermen during the spawn?

On lake run fish they use the old, "they don't reproduce here," story.

So people actually believe there are NO wild fish in the Salmon River? That's plain ridiculous.

I really think all that Oak Orchard/Salmon River Is Gross, For Trout atleast.. Its like shopping for a prostitute

Quote:

---

So people actually believe there are NO wild fish in the Salmon River? That's plain ridiculous.

---

And some people don't believe we landed on the moon. Nothing in this world shocks me anymore. Nothing.

But seriously...I think the intention of the topic is well meaning....but we know where this is headed.

There are plenty of folks up there that try to avoid the redds, don't keep trout or salmon. As with any group there is always a sample that runs counter to it.

Even the Guy In the Picture Isn't smiling, He knows its wrong to be holding that fish.. If you ask me thats a sad picture..

Quote:

---

That is why the areas arent closed off in the first place cause wild fish put a dent inb the income of hatcheriers . Rednecks like that just dont understand cause they want to show off that they are the best fishermen in the world or something .

---

as predicted this thread is now sliding downhill fast.

We all have a choice. I don't like that atmosphere, so I don't contribute to it.. I just feel bad for catching fish when there most vulnerable

I don't think state agencies really give a crap. Why else would PA and NJ do a fall stocking during the spawning periods and attract every weekend warrior to tramp all over the streams?

When you think about it it is really amazing the fact that there are wild fish in some of the rivers we fish. Lopat is right about the fall stock but there are people trampling all over the KLG all the time and there are still wild trout in there, as a matter of fact wild browns, brookies and rainbows. There are other rivers in this state that I think only support wild fish because of a lack of pressure and if they had people trampling through them all fall it would have a serious impact on the fish population.

In the case of the Farmington where there are very few wild fish (for the size of the river) maybe it would benefit from a closed season from say Oct. 15 to Jan. 1. Maybe it wouldn't help but I can tell that is a river that could produce a huge wild fish. You also have to look at it as does it really make a differnce on the Farmington? That river produce quality hold over fish year after year where as in NJ we don't have that. Any of our larger fish or going to be wild (few a far between) or a breeder that if its lucky lasts into the following spring.

In the case of the Salmon River it doesn't seem to be having a negative impact on the fishery but of course things could always be better. So my answer is I personally wouldn't fish to a trout on a redd but if the state leaves the rivers open its hard to get mad at people when they are with in the law. Also keep in mind NY closes most of the rivers where there are good populations of wild trout and in NJ sometimes no regulations are the best thing for our rivers. Keeps the people from going on the fish and game website finding out about a river and then going there and breaking the rules anyway.

Speaking of the rainbows of the KLG, I cant beleive how many there are.. How are they taking hold in such numbers. so quickly...I don't want to blow up the spot or anything but my god...

I haven't been there in a really long time but I got a really small one in July. Did TU do a trout in the class room stock or something? Aaron and I went through that place hard in the spring and I didn't get a single one now there are a bunch???

I have caught a handful since the cooler temps, 3 to 4 in'..Near perfect little guys, but very little color to them..

Interesting question Alain, and a very controversial, gray area topic.

The tradition of Great Lakes tributary fishing is generally one of fishing for trout, steelhead & salmon on their spawning runs. In some cases, the fish are only available for a brief window when they run up, quickly spawn, and then drop back. Other rivers see the fish holding for many months. Some have natural reproduction (many rivers in MI, for example), but the majority I fish have little to none, as they are spate type rivers that damn near dry up in the Summer. Fishing for fish actually on their redds is controversial topic nowadays, and in the end is ultimately a personal decision.

There is also an East vs. West difference here. West coast anadromous fisheries are dominated by diminishing runs of wild fish, so they are very against fishing for spawners, as they want to do everything to preserve their fisheries. Great Lakes tribs are usually a different story in that regard, and as I mentioned there is a long history of fishing to spawning fish. Now there are tribs with lots of natural reproduction- I personally believe the Salmon River in NY is one of these, even though I haven't seen any recent hard data on that one way or the other. Is catching a fish right before they spawn any less stressful to them than fishing them on the gravel? I don't know. I guess if we really don't want to stress the fish, we shouldn't even fish for them in the first place. I do think it's disgusting when an angler kills a trophy Fall lake run female brown trout solely for her eggs. Doubly so when he's wearing a $400 raincoat. Although the picture in your post is from Bert Dam on 18 Mile Creek in NY, where to the best of my knowledge there is zero natural reproduction, so the angler in question is not harming the fishery, just his reputation. If anyone wants to see true combat fishing, go there sometime in the next few weeks, it's a zoo and a bloodbath, with plenty of anglers who have no respect for their quarry.

Fishing for resident stream trout seems to be a more controversial topic, at least in the East. Where the fish are wild, there is concern for negative effects on natural reproduction- although from the studies I've read, catch & release does no significant harm. The real harm is from walking on the redds & crushing the eggs. Some people feel that the trout are too vulnerable & easy to catch during the spawn, and thus should be left alone because it is unsporting to do so. Until not all that long ago, trout seasons were much shorter and closed off before spawning time & did not reopen until the Spring. Catch & Release regulations and better cold weather fishing gear and clothing has changed all of this.

I guess to some people, fishing the redds is like lowering a basketball backboard to 7 feet and then bragging about being able to dunk the ball. In the end it's all personal decision based on your own ethics & sense of fair play. And there are many gray areas that make it difficult to definitively say what is right or wrong, and it can be situational.

I probably didn't give you any of the hard answers that you wanted, but I hope this helped a little Grasshopper, I mean Alain. :)

I am concerned that fly fishing for trout is so dependant on state funded stocking programs. The future of state budgets is very grim. State budget people are looking in every direction to cut. It is only a matter of time untill trout stocking programs face the budget ax. I think concerned sportman should get out in front of this and advocate for each state to do a better job of identifying and protecting streams and rivers where trout have the potential to reproduce and developing a plan to encourage wild fish. Some small streams may have to be shut down to fishing completely to accomplish this goal I like the reports on this site about the state of Ct effort to determine the population of wild trout in the farmington and capture some of those trout to be used as hatchery stock. I know that hind site is 20/20 but I think our sport and the environment would be much better of if all the money we spent on stocking fish in the last twenty years went to purchase ,preserve and protect land along various rivers and watersheds for trout habitat. I think the biggest enemy to wild trout is development.

Torrey: thanks for an excellent, summative response, I was hoping you would reply. We had already discussed this issue personally, but I really wanted the whole board to hear. I guess I am hoping this will reduce the number of judgmental stares people get on the Farmington when fishing in the fall and whacking 'em good.

From above....
"I guess to some people, fishing the redds is like lowering a basketball backboard to 7 feet and then bragging about being able to dunk the ball. In the end it's all personal decision based on your own ethics & sense of fair play. And there are many gray areas that make it difficult to definitively say what is right or wrong, and it can be situational. "

It's not like that at all. It's very incomplete. It's more like the hoop is lowered to 7 feet for 2 out of 10 people sharing the hoop and then it's broken by a zealous dunk which misses the mark and now the majority can't play anymore!

So I maintain, targeting wild fish on redds affects not only the fishery but other fisherman as well, that there are many situations where fishing for spawning trout on redss shouldn't be just a personal decision. Not at all. One is the West Branch of the Delaware where it is not a matter of personal choice. It's against the law. Thank god and NYS that there are regulations in place to protect wild spawning trout and their redds.

The reason it shouldn't be just a personal decision is that if there were not regulations and 20% of the fisherman decided to target spawners, given the sheer number of fisherman, the trampling alone of the redds would be certainly enough negatively affect the fishery. That in turn would affect the 80% of fisherman who didn't target spawning fish on redds.

Unlike other NE destination streams, The WBD relys 100% on natural reproduction and the fish there are all wild.

So those of you who think that fishing for wild spawning fish is a matter of personal choice you might want to consider the imact of it's practice on the fishery and your own fishing.

If you told an European angler about this topic, they would be shocked, this wouldn't even be an issue as their rivers are closed - all of them. This country is one of the few that even allows anglers a chance to fish for trout on their redds.

What I don't understand is that for many other species of gamefish regulations are in effect to protect them during their spawn periods. The seasons are either closed or there is a catch and release only rule in effect. The Sandusky river in Ohio used to be elbow to elbow in the spring during the walleye run. The ODNR has since closed it. There is a catch and release only rule in effect on the Delaware during the smallmouth spawn. I think NJ and PA should follow suit with trout. But it won't happen.

I am going to look at this from a couple of different point of views.

The States point of view: The reason the hatcheries stock thousands and thousands of fish into the Salmon River is to attract anglers of all kinds. Trophy fisherman, Catch and Release and fisherman that eat fish. The fall brings the most amount of people over to Pulaski area. Not only does the DEC take in a lot of money from license sales but the small businesses depend on the fisherman. So if they close the spawning areas to fishing this may discourage people from going to these small towns and spending money.

Low income/lost of job: As we all know things are tight right now in our economy. Some people buy a fishing license so they can eat/feed there family. Some people do depend on filling there freezer to have food for the winter. When it breaks down to survival is it really that bad to take fish off there redds. Yes you can argue there is state funding for people out of the job but some people are to proud to ask for help.

The person who gets to fish a few times a year: Some people only get to fish a few times a year. They see fish and the try to fish for them they may not know they are fishing for spawning fish.

Old habits die hard: As Torrey said the great lakes fisheries has traditionally been a spawn run fishery. It was not that long ago snagging was aloud. Some people have the mind set that you can only catch fish that are on the redds. They think that spawning fish do not bite. That might be the case for salmon after they have spawned but not the case for trout.

My Opinion: I honestly do NOT care if people fish the redds. I think they should be practicing catch and release. But if they don't that is there right to keep any fish within the laws. I do not think it hurts fish to be caught of a redd and released back to it. I do agree with walking all over the redds is very bad, If the concern is so much about wild fish why don't we group together and take down dams and restore habitats. Its easy to give these people a hard time about there fishing ethics but not so easy to change the past.

A very interesting subject matter is this and for many a very emotive one.
It does at the end of the day relate to two issues morals and ethics.

The reason why in the UK we close Trout and Salmon rivers is simply this. They are rivers and lakes that for thousands of years these species have naturally propagated.
By and large even today they are not stocked systems. Man made reservoirs are a different story as here stocked Rainbow trout do not naturally spawn.

We see here in the US very different history, due the the fact that there lake systems the species were introduced.
In some case we do see good natural reproduction, in others they are more or less totally supported by stock fish, and that is largely where the rub lies, they generate many millions of dollars and there is seen no need to restrict angling activity.

The last figures l had from USFW were that for each trout stocked the economic value amounted to around $3.25 per fish.

My view is this. Fishing for trout or Salmon while on redds l have no interest to do.
If we are dealing with river systems that there is a sustainable natural reproduction then would rather see the known zones those fish spawn closed down for the periods required, which is for Browns Nov to end of Jan, they do not all spawn in November, water temperature and DO levels are big issues here.
In the case of Bows, the natural spawn time would be during the spring, and that is the case for fisheries when there is good natural reproduction.
If fish are hatchery raised, and introduced the odds of any survival are very minimal as often as not these fish do not spawn at a time when there is chance of survival of the sac fry. Again today it is very much both related to screwed up genetics related within the hatchery system
having to raise brood stock to produce eggs 12 months of the year for growth and programmed fishery management for stocking.
In the past this was not so much a issue, in those days eggs were only obtained from brood stock during the spring period.

Other than that, for a fact we do lose many trophy Browns here on the White due to those fish when on the redds being hammered, many of which are foul hooked, either by accident or deliberate, for what, a glory picture, l might add l know of some guides who are in that category, for simply the reasons to add PR for business !!!

I have seen some of the worst behaviour from Fly fishers when fishing over redds, near on fist fights, unreal.
Yet many of those are members of TU,FFF and and FF clubs that then bitch the Fish and Wildlife do not do enough to enhance the fishery management or provide adequate enforcement.
But see no wrong to hook trout out from redds when they should be left alone. Trophy fish are killed and the redds are destroyed, leaving zero chance of any progeny to survive.

If we are dealing with Pacific Salmon that have zero chance to survive or spawn, l guess at the end of the day its down to how you value your fishing ethics.
What l do find strange is when l see a angler hold in admiration a fish that is going to die in a matter of days, or may well be at that point when it was foul hooked, l have seen it take place.

DW

In streams which are dependent on hatchery stocking - there should be no differentiation - and no board politics pressuring those who fish to the spawners. In self-sustaining streams, the rivers should be closed during spawning.

The Farmington, for example, is a Disney-like trout park, with heavy stocking. Many of the larger stocked trout feed on Salmon fry and parr. To think that they are not doing the same to trout fry is silly. Therefore, I would suggest that if you wish for a sustainable wild trout population (or wish to protect the progeny of spawning trout - which is the concern about wading through redds, correct?), you cease stocking and close the river from October through December. This, of course would truly make the Farmington a challenging and technical fishery, and those who currently think of it as such will fail to catch the fish and cry to the state that there are no fish there.

Ok, I saw some redds for the first time today. I guess I've seen them before but never really thought of what they were. This is the first time I've trout fished this late into the year. There was a group of about 7 or 8 redds in this particular stretch of the creek and from what I could see there were some massive fish sitting on them. I was really tempted to casts some flies to them but I refrained and went upstream to catch some stockies.

[quote author=Adam link=topic=3726.msg28502#msg28502 date=1256744814]

Quote:

---

That is why the areas arent closed off in the first place cause wild fish put a dent inb the income of hatcheriers . Rednecks like that just dont understand cause they want to show off that they are the best fishermen in the world or something .

---

what do you mean Adam ? Im going to tell you ive met tons of these idiots on the river .if you dont like what i posted to bad but it is true these guys are ignorant red necks plain and simple they are the guys who dont care about anything except catching the biggest fish possible in the easiest way .Hell ive watched them out here snag fish out of brush piles ,and then think they are awesome or something .It is a redneck mentality .most are bait or gear guys as well and litter all over the banks ,you can go to any gear chucker area here and in New Jersey and find their trash there .

as predicted this thread is now sliding downhill fast.
[/quote]

removed...I should not have posted it in the first place.

:D ouch

Thanks slow and deep much love ,i guess you drive and audio and fish on reds ,Im not a super man at spelling ,but atleast im smart enough to know not to fish over spawning fish . It shows the mentality of people on this site at times .
Im on your side ,not against you but a number of times you have tried to put me down on here . I was on this site long before you and Adam. I have helped alot of people on this site .
You dont know me so you can say what you want ,but Ive heard enough of how guys are real fishermen on here who fish over redds and fish at the pequest dumping hole .

How many of you are even going to a TU meeting and trying to change things ,oh and I've seen plenty of subaru and audi fishermen who litter and leave crap everywhere ,my point is try to put yourself above them but i guess you can only have negative things to say about me because you have nothing else better say slo and deep !

Dam I got nailed, I Must be the trashs littering audi owner.. Everyone has there own veiw on fishing ethic's, We should respect everyones decision when to and where to fish without finger pointing..

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
Thanks slow and deep much love ,i guess you drive and audio and fish on reds ,Im not a super man at spelling ,but atleast im smart enough to know not to fish over spawning fish . It shows the mentality of people on this site at times . [/quote]
I listen to audio, and do not fish on colors.

As I said earlier, If you want to protect spawning trout. close the river, and don't stock 2 year old hatchery rats.

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
Im on your side ,not against you but a number of times you have tried to put me down on here . [/quote]
I have commented on your spelling and incoherent sentences before. Perhaps you should reread what you write before posting. Try the preview button.

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
I was on this site long before you and Adam. [/quote]
You registered for this site on 11/28/07, I registered 2/8/07; roughly 9.75 months before you.


[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
I have helped alot of people on this site . [/quote]
Perhaps you have, what's your point? Do you suspect I haven't?

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
You dont know me so you can say what you want ,but Ive heard enough of how guys are real fishermen on here who fish over redds and fish at the pequest dumping hole . [/quote]
Have you ever heard of or seen me fishing the Pequest? I don't even know where it is. I don't generally fish over redds, but was on the Deerfield last week and was catching several hatchery rats on egg flies. I know fish are spawning in there, so do you think I should stay away? The river was at 2000 CFS and off color, and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts allows fishing year round.

[quote author=Nutman link=topic=3726.msg28838#msg28838 date=1257732427]
How many of you are even going to a TU meeting and trying to change things ,oh and I've seen plenty of subaru and audi fishermen who litter and leave crap everywhere ,my point is try to put yourself above them but i guess you can only have negative things to say about me because you have nothing else better say slo and deep !
[/quote]

Your point earlier was to call those who fish differently than you rednecks. My point to Adam was to not argue with you because you are unable to present a clear thought process. You simply spout off without fact to back your opinion, sorta like you being on the site before me, and resort to a thug mentality when someone offers a differing opinion.

If you would like to discuss the ethics of fishing over redds, I'm open to have that conversation. However, if you want to resort to name-calling with those who disagree with you, I'm just going to continue pointing out the irony of a guy who can't spell calling others rednecks.

I made the comment (Its LIke CAtching Fish in a barrel) In a post In Pequest/Klg If you read it correctly I was talking about the gorge, I have actually never set foot in the pequest.. And I dont think anyone will argue the fact that the whole gorge which is mile an half long is loaded with fish.. I do not fish ladders or thermal refuges nor do i think anyone does on tpo.. So fishing the Gorge makes me??? A bad person because they stock the gorge????sorry guys I think Im the one that caused the drama, But I do have morals and I think using the statment Like catching fish in a barrel casts me as a meat hungry fisherman..
Why are you attacking aaron ? All he does is help people..(NotNice)

From the American Library Association; :)


Citing Web Sites
It is important to provide complete information about your primary source whether found in a printed source or online. The basic elements to include in a citation for a published print source are: author of the document, title of the document, title of the book if different from the document, name of editor or author of the book, place of publication, publisher, year, and page numbers. The basic elements to include in a citation for an online source are: author of the document, title of the document, title of the web site, author or producer of the web site, url, date (if given) and date accessed. Various style formats such as Chicago, MLA and APA put these elements in different order using different conventions. See the following web sites for further information and examples.

Just a simple mention of where the info comes from would be nice!

I see A Trader, Tpo is one stop shopping for all the other info on the internet? Whys that??? I'll tell you, beacuse we fish instead of lifting thoughts of others and posting on other sites thinking your smart for copying and pasteing..Thats dirty,,,

I am going to try and steer this in another direction. Below is a pic of Bushkill creek. Notice the 4 redds in the picture, 2 sets of 2 that I have encircled. My question is: Is it common for redds to be built side by side like these? Also, do you think these pairs were made by the same fish? If this is common knowledge please excuse my ignorance as I am fairly new to this as many of you well know.

[smg id=480]

I could't see a dam fish even with a telescpoe lopat!!!HAHAHA Put a smiley face under the two eyes.. Good picture Im gonna try to blow it up in another program see If i could see them...I can see a gravel type bottom though..

I didn't see any fish on them today but they were there a few days ago.

On the Farmington now, many of the redds are unoccupied and many of the females are spawned out. The remaining Bitteroot-strain fish still have to go. I am taking someone out on Friday, so I'll take another look.

Nutman I have to know, do you fish Bamboo?, Wear a feather in your hat? Demand that no one fishs within 50ft?Because you seem the type....I must admit I know the type all to well..


Darn it who gave the bad karma?

Geez, all I wanted was 2 questions answered. Nevermind, I'll find it somewhere.