Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
OK, l would like here to clarify how l look at what is termed a wet fly, which for me is not related to any fly that sinks.
It is a particular type of fly of a traditional value historically, all be it there may be modern variations of similar nature.
The essence of a good wet fly is that it should readily sink when it lands on the water surface, granted there may be patterns that incorporate dubbed body that until they are wet will float for a short time, after which they will sink, unless you use a fast casting action that dries the fly out, if you do the odds are you are using a rod that does not have a mid flex action, we will deal with this issue at a later point in time.
Likewise if you have excess hackle and again the fly will not sink, not good. We are dealing with wet flies here.
If the fly does not sink as soon as it lands on the surface of the water you may encounter drag, and spook fish that would otherwise have taken that fly if it were sunk.
Which is the essence of a spider style/soft hackle.
Other factors l also consider are hook weights used for the particular flies l use at given times, as this matters very much at times, more about this later.
So to categorise how l look at wet flies it would be this, all be it there are variations.
Winged wet fly.
Winged/ with palmered hackle
Palmered hackle
Spiders
Soft hackles.
All wet flies will incorporate one or more of these elements over and above tails and body mediums.
But they also serve for different reasons and use given prevailing conditions at that time.
Ok, l would never use the word never so far as how a trout might react, however there is a basis of approach that is shall we say way more conducive to catch fish at a given time by the manner you are fishing.
For example. We are fishing a shallow water riffle run over good gravel substrate. The is a hatch of say BWO or PMD. The obvious choice here would be to fish lightly dressed spider patterns that represent the nymphs, and duns at stages of emergence or drowned duns, at different depths, all be it within the first 6 ins of the surface. We can have options here for 1 or up to say 4 flies, in preference at least two.
In this situation l would not choose to use say a Peter Ross, a Blae and Black or a Green Peter as examples, all be it one of those may work. By far the most consistent way to beat those fish is to use flies of a character that represent in some way the naturals the fish are eating.
Further more l would be fishing the spiders in a very different way than l would for the latter 3 flies named.
This is the only way you will further understand the art of fishing wet fly. Using flies that have to be fished in a imitative way.
Granted you may choose to fish downstream and fish all manner of soft hackles down and across and that may work, but you are not learning the skills of fishing wet flies in what l would term the right way so far as representation.
If there were for example a good number of fish feeding in this zone, the most effective manner of presentation will be up and at a across angle, and allow for the flies to drift at the same pace as the current flow.
If we opt for standing upstream of these fish, casting across and down the odds are we will spook them.
Therefore my approach is going to be a long overall leader at least 12 ft, maybe more, 5 and maybe 6x with 3 flies at least 25 to 30 ins apart presented in a dead drift mode.
Watch a fish take a natural fly, it will do it positively. You are aiming to present your fly is such a way as the fish does same.
I guess the best way to explain this is this.
If l told you to rig 3 dry flies and fish them without drag that is easy as you can see the flies and make corrections to the drift.
Now do the same with the sunken spiders, its not so easy as you cannot see them. Therefore you have to use other ways to determine that.
Which we will deal with in part two.
Davy
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
That is very good. The last set up that you described has been spot on for catching the trout at home. Very sparsely tied imitative flies fished dead drift in the scenario that you described is the number one technique. If a nympher went head to head with a guy properly fishing soft hackles in a low gradient non-descript riffle they would get beat 9 out of 10 times.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Part two.. Spiders and soft hackles.
Some of you l know will have knowledge of the UK North country style of spider hackle. If not a brief intro here.
Spiders are typically flies tied very sparse, silk is often the body medium and in some cases natural animal fur dubbings.
Hackles were procured primarily from Game birds, songbirds and waders.
Soft hackles are of course generally defined as flies tied with a hackle that is not obtained from a rooster. This is not always the case as rooster hackle both for soft hackle and spiders should be considered.
The main difference is the hackle is not wound in the same way as you would for a dry fly, it is not there to enable a fly to float.
One and possibly 2 turns are used at a given angle to the fly body. ( I will deal with this later.)
Which l might add is also same for other soft hackles used depending on the nature of the fly.
I would hazard a guess here and say that at least 85% of soft hackles available via fly shops are tied with partridge hackle, which is of course ok, the problem is this hackle is not suited for use for many of the spider patterns that would be effective.
For example a partridge soft hackle is not what l would wish to use during a BWO hatch.
If the nature of the hatch was caddis it would be a good choice along with many other options of hackle taken from poultry and game birds of UK or US origin.
There for, there has to be a relationship for the fly used related to the species it is representing, which was the way of thought used by those who innovated flies of the past, and is the way l also evaluate this.
All be it l have fly patterns that l would determine as more generic in so far as they contain elements that attract fish.
To coin a phrase here, there is a difference between catching a fish by accident than one caught by design.
The smaller species of mayfly/baetis are delicate creatures, and a fly should in some way represent that.
Considerations are overall body color tone, thorax and sparse hackle of again a related color tone.
Small hook sizes and a given weight.
Typically l will use for such flies fine wire hooks. I do not wish for the fly to sink, it needs to ride just under the meniscus, be tumbled about at the mercy of natural water movement and look like one of the 4 primary stages.
Nymph, dun, drowned dun and spinner.
I will show tied examples in the near future.
Those of you who have watched the Wet Fly Ways DVD will often hear me refer to keeping in touch with your flies.
Which does not mean that there is a tension between you and the flies unless you are recovering the flies at a given pace toward you.
What l am saying here is this so far as dead drift is concerned.
You must allow for the flies to fish as close as possible to natural stream drift, but you also have to have contact in such a way as the smallest of indication that a fish has taken the fly will allow for you to set the hook, easier said than done until you have acquired the skills.
If your flies are fishing in the correct mode a fish should be able to take the fly and not feel any tension, therefore it will take it with confidence, and not try to eject it immediately it feels tension.
At any point in time you should know exactly where you flies are.And that can only happen if you make a perfect initial presentation.
A cast that brings the flies down in a jumbled mess is not going to work.
If you watch how l make my initial presentations you will note it is a very slow casting stroke, the flies will land in a straight line at the angle l chose to present them. I determine this by looking at the surface movement of the water downstream, before l make that choice.
I then determine how l will further allow for slack line to maintain a very long dead drift, which l can do for a great distance or one that l consider further would not be productive, or l lose control.
The ways to know if a fish has taken the flies are. You see movement from the fish, which may be a flash, a surface boil or change to the natural surface disturbance or the leader is seen to move. In all cases the hook is set.
If you wait for a pull you will miss the majority of fish that take your fly, when fishing dead drift techniques.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Great info Davy. I have been having more success with the dead drift tactics. I am missing some but it seems to be getting easier every time out.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
one question does this only work when the river is at a "normal " flow . If fish are not hitting top water ,in a high flow it would cause me to want to nymph .Im just woundering when the best time is to use this tecnique .We have had some heavy rain in the last month ,im headed for the dechutes next week it should be at a good flow but one never knows .I was there monday with no luck but this is the first time ive tried to fish that way .as far as having three flies on .
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Nutman,
Look at it like this. If l think that l can raise fish to topwater methods l will go that way, often as not when he water temps rise many fish will be found in the shallow zones, particularly those with agitated water seams, some of the largest Browns l have caught have been fishing such water.
I agree that if you are dealing with high water it might not be a option, however if you are fishing from a boat on the drift you will be able to work the shorelines, may be have to go with a intermediate here and larger wet style flies, try my muddler daddy, that can be a killer at such times.
Davy.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
OK, guys had a couple of emails regarding choice of hackles for top water flies.
If you can find them either hen or rooster hackles that are what we term as spangled, in other words they may be overall of one tone but contain flecks of other color, ideally steely, dun and gold.
These little flecks catch the light and bring the fly to life.
One of my absolute favorites are those in the iron blue, natural and honey dun.
Now and again l will find those in the junk box often found at shows where they are termed as nondescripts, usually very cheap, the sellers have no idea of how valuable they are.
Other than that l raise my own birds, the best to keep are Andalusian and Ameraucana, if you mess around crossing these two you will get some superb hackles.
Brown leghorns also a good breed, particulary the hens.
I used to sell these in selected packs of 10, and would do so again if the demand was there.
I will take some pics of some of my birds and post for you guys to see.
In the case of tying duns and spinners about 1 to 2 turns at most is all that is needed.
Other than this over and above partridge hackle.
A good few of the UK bird feathers are available such as, and l can supply you with these.
Snipe
Jay
Crow
Magpie
Jackdaw
Coot
Moorhen
Snipe
Woodcock
Grouse
Golden plover
Starling
There are also many legal options here.
Species of quail and grouse
Rails
Coot
Road kills of different species all be it you might need to check your State laws, some birds come under USFW Federal regulations such as migratory species and birds of prey.
Other ways to procure birds may be from taxidermist sales, often they will have a licence to deal with protected species.
We will look at some options for duns and spinners next write up
Davy.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Nice Davy thanks,
I can attest to the Muddler Daddy in high off color water last night it was working pretty well for me. I was fishing it on the top dropper and the trout were hammering it. The only problem I am having is having trout shack loose and not getting a good hook set some times but I am getting better every time out. I am determined to only use wets until i get this down pat!
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Flyfisher,
Were you fishing more in a downstream and across mode, as often as not this is one of the main reasons for loosing fish, for the reason being you are waiting to feel the take of the fish and then when you set the hook pulling it away from the fish.
The solution to deal with this is to watch the fly line for the slightest movement and you set the hook before the fish feels resistance, by which time the fish is able to work with a tight line.
one other way to help eliminate this problem is not to hold the fly line tight, be prepared to give some slack at the time you see the fly line or leader move, these few fractions of a second will make a difference.
In otherwords do not clamp the line against the rod butt with your finger.
The other option is to use the none rod hand for line control, which is at the end of the day about the beat way overall.
The only other factor may be the rod you are using, particularly if it is a fast action and does not absorb the shock of the take
Davy
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Yeah I have been using either upstream or down stream presentations and miss more of the down stream takes. The rod I am using is an older Orvis 4wt it is mroe of a mid flex action almost a full flex. Its not the rod it is more me i am getting better at stroke detiction every time out and I think I may be in the market for a Snow Bee Dt line. I am using a orange line now and I am I think I would be better at deticting strikes with a white line. I really don't mind missing the trout really they are mostly smaller browns and rainbows but there is one Brown that was around 20" that I am bummed about but oh well it is a blast and I am becomeing very partial to wets in quick order.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Hi Davy,
Great information you are posting!
I, too, love the flecked feathers as well. Speckled hen back comes in various shades of brown and gray and are being dyed different colors and offered by different suppliers. Brahma hen backs are similar and offered as well. I also like hackles with a darker or different colored list like Badger, Furnace, Greenwell's, and Brahma (which is being dyed and offered in a number of different colors by Whiting. See the Topaz Soft, below. The hackle is straw colored Brahma hen.) Good old Partridge can also be dyed and used. I also like Grizzly hackles for some wets.
http://www.libstudio.com/Photographs.../TopazSoft.jpg
Mark
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
What are the feelings on starling for hackle on smaller flies?
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
starling is good stuff for small flys...one of the best I would say.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
For sure starling is a very useful feather. Works great for thread bodied midges, drowned ants and black gnats.
Mark, no doubt tyers of to day have way more availability of poultry hackle both natural and dyed.
one of the reasons why l raise my own birds is many of the natural colors l prefer and were those used way back are not available from commercial sources to day. I tried to get Tom Whiting to raise those birds but he told me that he did not think he would get a good enough market, and he may be right about that.
Many of these hackles do come from the fancy breeds, may be l should go into full time production. If a high end dry fly neck can fetch 100 bucks then why not same for a hen neck !!
I may well incubate a further 50 eggs this month and see if we can sell the necks to those of you who have a interest here.
How many ty dries to day with genetic necks, it is a very low percentage as it is for dry fly sales Nationwide.
I also dye my own necks, as to be honest l am real fussy about the shades of that feather when wet
Big Brown.
I use the Snowbee white DT line and have done since they were available. My friend is the MD of that UK based company.
There are two reasons why.
one is visibility, the second is it is a very supple line and is no wiry, this make a great deal of difference no question of doubt in so far as how the flies will move.
Next best bet is to obtain a silk line, they cannot be beat, down side is you have to take care of them, around 200 bucks last one l purchased.
Time l got off the river today and all else dealt with l did not have time to take pics of the flies l talked about.
Hopefully to morrow.
Davy.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Davy you can get the Snow Bee lines then i am guessing? I really want to give them a try.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Davy,
I would say that you are correct about the hackle producers NOT producing wet fly necks because of the market, but I also believe that wet flies continue to grow in popularity and use. Someday, perhaps. I must also add that economically, many can not afford to spend $100 on hackle capes. I know prices are coming up, but these are, for me, at least, out of reach. Many tiers today have to think about their wallets. I spend my money where I can get the best deal for what I want. If someone can offer decent materials at a good price, they'll have my business, and probably others as well.
The Brahma hen Whiting is offering is top notch for about $15. Many of the speckled hen necks sell for less than that and offer good performance, color, and action for under $10. I have quite a nice Partridge skin I got for under $20.
I guess you've got to be money conscious nowadays.
Mark
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Mark,
Great point I think we are all the same why. As much as I tie espically in the winter cost becomes a big part of it. I would be willing to pay 30 bucks for top quality hen and wet fly necks. There is a market but sadly it it is not nearly the market that has developed for dry fly hackle.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Flyfisher,
I've gotton some excellent deals on white hen necks of fairly good quality, if one shops around. Dying yourself isn't that difficult and with a little preparation and testing, one can get the colors you desire.
As far as starling is concerned, I use these hackles a lot. They are somewhat delicate, so one must develop a sensitivity to them. I have found starling is fairly good substitute for other, more expensive bird feathers.
Mark
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Yeah starling is a little trick to use but I have found it deadly on some sunken ants that i have tied. I really have gotten a lot of my wet fly stuff at Fishermens Paradise in State College. Its a great show for wet fly stuff a couple of the workers are big into wet sp they have a nice selection of all kinds of stuff.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Hi Mark, yes no doubt few are prepared to spend 100 bucks on a neck.
One of the advantages no doubt is that good feather is available at low cost for the wet and soft hackle fanatics.
You might find this interesting. When l owned a operation like Wapsi in the UK, l used to buy from India hen necks for around 20c each, Chinese necks around 25c each.
I went to India one time to sort out what l needed from one of the companies l used to deal with, that was a revelation l can tell you. They had these kids killing and skinning birds, and they were paid next to nothing.
Good Partridge is becoming hard to find. there are two sources. One is here in the US for the Hungarian, known in the UK as the the Brown Partridge, the other sold here is the smaller imported from China.
The US birds mainly come from game bird breeders that raise birds for hunting. They do not like to keep them after the hunting season as feed costs are high, so they are processed for the fly tying business.
They are also prone to disease issues if kept in captivity.
Word of advice here guys. Partridge is costing around 30 bucks to day in the fly shops. Before you buy it check it out.
Look more so at the Brown feather. If those feathers look like the ends of the feather has been eaten away by mites, and they are not as a good shaped full feather do not buy them.
If you figure out what each feather works out at given you are paying 30 bucks they are costly as there are not that many useful hackles for average hook sizes 12 to 16.
Further more you will only get high quality fly tying material from a store that has a guy who also knows what good stuff is, most have no idea.
Davy.
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Hi Davy,
I've got two questions. First, you mentioned using rooster. Leisenring used various hackle stiffnesses depending upon the water speed he was fishing, using cockerel hackle on some of his flies. Do you consider this good practice?
Second, do you think hook wire weight has a noticeable impact on the sink rate of flies?
Thanks,
Mark
Re: Wet Fly Ways.. The flies.
Mark,
yes l certainly agree that rooster hackle has its place, no doubt of that.
Historically the train if thought was that flies used for lake fishing supported rooster hackles and those used for rivers and streams used soft hackles, all be it there are many flies of the 1800s that were fished both for lakes and moving water systems that used rooster.
Now also consider this Mark. At that time there was no such thing as genetically raised birds.
In many cases prime rooster hackle was obtained from birds raised for cock fighting, old English game birds.
Many of the breeds we see to day did not exist back then.
In fact one of my uncles friends did just that raised birds for fighting and feather for tying, as a rule the birds that were of no use in the ring were those used for the feathers, or those that were killed.
Take some of these classic patterns as a example. The Butchers, Dunkeld, Peter Ross, Alexandra, Mallard and Teal series, which were primarily lake flies, all used rooster hackle.
Many of the wet flies used in Spain and France used CDleon hackles which is a very stiff vibrant feather.
So yes, for sure l have a great use for rooster hackle depending on the fly l use it for, often as not for sunk spinners, egg laying baetis etc.
Hook weights. Again Mark l do consider this to be important, some may argue other wise, it is my experience that at times it will make a great difference for a number of reasons.
The first is the nature of the fly.
As l am sure you would know, if you wish to tie say a soft hackle with a sparse body a a few turns of delicate hackle then you would choose a fine wire hook, it would not be a good choice to use a heavy weight iron.
Such a fly would be fished in the upper levels of the water column.
Further more this hook would be obstrusive to the nature of this fly.
On the other hand l may well choose to use a heavy weight iron for large bodied fly patterns such as a Alexandra.
To answer your question , yes l do believe it can have a noticable effect depending on the nature of the materials used for that fly and further how it is fished, also more to the point the nature of the filament used, is it mono, FC, CP, and what is its diameter.
For the same fly will sink at different rates, by choice of filament used.
Davy
