Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
This is going to be a killer discussion!
I have TONS of ideas about this topic!
You have streams with wild and stocked trout where the stocked trout act more like wild fish.
You also have totally stocked fisheries where the trout take what seems like forever to wisen up.
The you have all wild fisheries where the wild trout are what they are and can be very wary.
However, to start I think that wild trout that are subjected to extreme pressure are easier to catch in many situations that a heavily pressured stocked trout can be.
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
Also, to add to the previous post the wild fish tend to be more opportunistic feeders and this might account for the high success rate on the wild trout stream versus the hatchery fish.
Wild fish act like a trout should because they are the "real deal".
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
This is a great topic. I think it also has a lot to do with species and environment.
For example, I have a fair amount of experience fishing for wild brook trout. I would say that these fish are always easy to catch independent of pressure. They are able to withstand pressue better because they tend to inhabit the tiny forgotten spots most fishermen overlook. In Maine, I fished for brookies in a small stream. The fish there were always frightened by underwater predators (otters), but not so much from overhead predators (no herons there, but a few bald eagles). I sight fished to them for days, made shadows and always was able to figure out a way to catch them. On Thursday, I fished a local heavily-stocked and pressured stream for a couple hours. I had a harder time catching the stocked browns and rainbows because I feel they inhabit areas within easier reach of fishermen. I did catch a lot of brookies, however, because I made it a point to fish the little in between spots that people avoid and fish in odd locations like under brush piles.
I have mixed feelings on wild browns. In my little spot near my house in Southern CT, the wild browns behave much like the Maine brookies did. I can catch them at will, especially when they are pooled up in the winter. On Friday, I fished the WBR Del in NY and the wild browns are very wary. In the Farmington, I believe the holdover fish to be more spooky and always harder to catch. The holdovers (for all intents and purposes, behaving like "wild" fish), move with the current flows, get spooked from high pressure areas and feed most logically (they won't hit the wooly bugger when they are feeding on cased caddis).
I think environment, light levels and predatory birds also have a lot to do with it. Let me think some more about this topic.
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
In the west the cutthroat act very different then rainbows or browns . They are very wild and migratory ,but when they feed if a hatch is on they hit everything ,but then they can become very selective during periods where there is no hatch . I have found older wild brook trout to be very aggressive as well .
Hatchery fish are stocked and I think it takes them time to adjust ,they are also use to being (hand fed) so they are not going to forage for say nymphs right away . It is hard to determine exactly why they seem to be harder to catch ,atleast on the fly . bait is another issue . I think in part due to smell . I think if the fish had less pressure and time to adjust you would find your strike ratio increase .
When I have gotten to fish over wild fish I found them to be more aggressive at times because I think it is due to the fact that they have to struggle to survive more . This can be apparent even more just in their size alone . Ive always wanted to find a 22" wild trout in a little brook ,very hard to do now adays ,though I know of a stream in NJ that holds them but due to tresspass laws can no longer go there .(Im not telling either so dont ask ,just trying to make your mouths water ,but I do truely know .)
I think trout under pressure also feed much more selectively ,lets face it they learn everytime they get hooked ( if you bit into a steak and got bit back you would watch more carefully too.)
Small stream trout are also hungry because they are trying to grow .I love catching small trout on a light pole they can seem like little sharks and the hide in the coolest little places ,it amazes me everytime one comes out of some small riffle ,or from behind a stone where you would never think a fish was .
Anyway sounds like you had a fun time catching some nice trout ,its what its all about to me big or small ,it all in having a tight line . peace ;)
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
I think as Aaron said that when mixed, wild trout will train stocked trout.
Wild trout will tend to disperse more evenly and in fact that can make them appear more abundant and easier since you can always find fresh fish. Stocked fish seem to lose the need for "personal space" and will tend to stay in shoals or groups--so you can very likely put off a bunch of fish in short order--or catch a bunch from a small area. Also--for the same reason they do not tend to disperse as well.
Wild Brookies tend to live in very infertile areas and are grossly overabundant in many small streams. This lack of food and high populations of stunted fish can create very easy to catch fish.
I think fishing pressure conditions fish but does not really make them harder--PA's Spring Creek is a prime example. Very easy fishing--yet extremely high pressure and about 95% willd browns. You just need to know where to find them. Conversely, the neighboring Big Fishing Creek has far less pressure, a few less fish but they are heads and tails harder than most. Why? Who knows. I think the variety in food has much to do with it and you fly merely gets lost.
Stream size--less room to hide so to speak. The average angler will just fish a small stream better because there is less of it and they are super carefull.
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
I think you are right about the trout learning from the other trout Loren ,it just makes sense .Joe humphy talks about how they have a picking order .and after watching steelhead chase salmon I believe that to be true .It is like watching someone eat vegetables when you are young you might not like it at first ,but sooner or later you try them .
Ive just run into that situation where the trout were stocked at the begging of the year they will bite egg patterns but not nymphs at first ,later on as the fish adjust ,if they havent been picked off by the bait fishermen ,they seem to take nymphs regularly .
Like you said though who knows ,Ive gone from one river to the next and everything changes . luck,time ,and place .
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
There is a distinct pecking order with wild browns and brookies but I have not found the case to be true with rainbows. Everywhere I've fished for rainbows they appear to be very intermixed by size and age--steelhead included. Rainbows are for sure a gregarious species and I think they enjoy each other. Browns and brookies are not so friendly.
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
That brings up an interesting point!
I have seen brown trout fighting with each other when they stock them. I have seen wild trout chasing the hatchery trout around pools as well. Brown trout are very interesting creatures. They all have very individualized behaviors even when found in the same stream.
I guess rainbow trout are more friendly! ;D And for that we like them!
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
Ive seen that as well always five or six rainbows togeather the pecking order changes with them from front to back though ,if you get a chance watch a pool with a few different size fish they will move in a feeding order so to speak . Brown and brookies seem to be like more like preditors were rainbows seem like stick home and feed as food goes by .Browns and brookies on the other hand almost seem pissed off at everything and try to kill with serious force. I have to say for there size browns can hit like a hammer and fight back hardcore when hooked . Heck the last one I hooked was a few years back now but I still remember the slam when
he took the dry fly .
they always seem to find that nice pocket of water to ,where they can swing out and smash food .I love browns they are the best when you find on .
It is one of the reasons Ive wanted to hook a steelhead with the fly so bad I want to feel their power ,they rave about it out here .Ill be on them soon enough though .
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
I tried posting this somewhere else and I don't think it went through b/c I was prompted with some type of warning that I had to log in or something. I'm new to this sort of stuff and it might have been b/c it was on another reply fron Aaron. Anyway here's someof my thoughts about wild vs stocked fish
1) hatchery fish are conditioned to pellets and eggs from the time they are fry. They know what an egg is. If I was fishing over stocked fish particularly rainbows, I would use that 1st. As they get conditioned to stream life they begin to change over to stream life forms. wild/holdovers see spawning eggs so they will hit them too. Hence eggs are a good choice for prospecting.
2) Truely wild fish tend to bolt long before you get a chance to get them in certain streams whereas holdovers and stockies tend to get very selective even with a little pressure in a short time. I also think it depends a lot on what waters your fishing and how much natural pressure is going on on top of what we put on them.
3) I think in some regards intro of stocked fish into wild/holdover populations tend to create competition so the "natives" have to become less wary temporarily. You see this on the Farmington a lot when they stock the TMA
4) Within the stream there are "trigger" fish that others respond to. They sometimes get other fish to begin to feed. They insight a feeding frenzy. I've seen this at Joe Humphreys house when he feeds his pet fish on Spring Creek. I don't what to give too much more info about him, where he lives, etc out of respect b/c he's been my mentor and friend for years and don't want to jeapordize that. We've all seen where hatches take place but the fish aren't on it yet. Well, the "leaders" haven't tuned into it yet nor have the general population. Again it comes back to conditioning. An example is Spring Creek. There are trillions of cress bugs and fish feed on them all the time ( conditioning ). All of a sudden a sulphur hatch arrives. The first day or so you can still catch fish on cress bugs during the hatch. You fish it a day or two later and start fishing cress bugs but a sulphur hatch takes place...all of a sudden you stop taking fish on the cress bug b/c they have turnedto the sulphur b/c they became conditioned to that. Joe references this in his books. I'm not just reciting what he said. This comes from personal experience as well
5) almost all of it comes down to inherent genetics and conditioning--are they tuely wild with no previous human contact? Are there a lot of natural predators? Have wilds been subjected to stockies? Are holdovers now in competition with stocked fish? So many theories and possibilities. One thing is for sure they are strange and hard to figure out sometimes
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
I never would have guessed this question would be given so much conversation. But I think the thing I got out of this the most is that I need to try the same techniques in more different streams. There are so many factors...
Natural predation
Actually species
Wild or Hatchery
Fishing pressure
I just want to continue to be a more skilled fly fisher. Thanks for the response!
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
I agree that in the Farmington stocking trout makes the larger holdovers more vulnerable to anglers. They move out of their usual spot and pick spots (usually very shallow water) to feed. This was evidenced during the Hendrickson hatch this spring.
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
Fish, in general, seem susceptible to competitive urges. How many times have we fished a location and were certain it was devoid of fish until catching the first one? In small streams fishing bait, my Dad and I always uses to make this comment. In fact, upon catching the first one, it's probably good to let it swim around a bit. Also, how often do we see another fish swimming alongside the fish on our line?
Fish have to be competitive - their survival depends on it!
Re: Hatchery vs. Wild Trout.
Hey,
Interesting disscussion. One thing I would add is that in many rivers the mortality of stocked fish is greater than 90%. Thus, holdovers are rare and the fish have both a limited life span and time to learn anything. In NYS this has prompted the DEC to start stocking 2yr old trout so that the sports have a chance to catch somewhat larger fish. I think the logical next step would be to tag selected fish and give prizes to the sports that catch them. I get the impression that most people on this board dont' fish the Battenkill. It represents an interesting test bed. Vermont does not stock and Ny does. I haven't fished the VT section, but can attest that the Browns in the NYS Trophy section are plenty wary.The other factor that has not been mentioned is that the diet of larger fish especially browns is likely different than the smaller fish. I've read that larger browns are mainly nocturnal feeders and eat mainly larger meals such as fish, crayfish, and larger bugs. These fish may never fall victim to the number 22 midge nymph. Toodles,Frogge.
