Match the Hatch... Fact or Fiction?

It is interesting that you quote Jim Stangowitz from http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/dryfly.htm from the Flyfish@ page under "How To":

http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/main.htm

I was one of the early members of Flyfish@ when it was the only place on the internet to discuss fly fishing. This was well before the WWW.

I volunteered to write the original FAQ page for FF@ back in the 1990's. Since I wrote the original FAQ's, I have my own section on the Flyfish@ page under "Henry's FAQs". You will see that my FAQ's precede Jim's of 1997.

http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/hnrymenu.htm

If you are interested, my Dry Fly FAQ is at:

http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/faq/faq-3.htm

Jim Stangowitz was a friend of mine. We were on Flyfish@ back in the "old days". He asked me to look over some of his writing but not this particular one, otherwise I would have told him that I thought he was wrong about selectivity. Unfortunately, Jim passed away last year of a heart attack.

Although I did not contribute to Jim's FAQ you quoted, I did contributed to 3 of the FAQs under the "How To FAQ's" including Jim's other FAQ on "Beginners Guide to Rod, Reels, and Lines". You can see that Jim credited me under his Conclusion Section

http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/newfaq.htm

I also contributed to the "processing Fly Tying Material at Home" by Bob Petti

http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/petti.htm

and I contributed to the Warm Water FAQ by Buck Hall.

http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/wwfaq.htm

Jim had his perspective on fly fishing, but I believe he was wrong on this particular aspect of selectivity.

Oh yea that's pretty cool...I'll check out the on on dry flies when I get a chance

Here's a Venn Diagram of what I think happens as transition from opportunistic to selective feeding. Sorry that I didn't have time to do it yesterday. A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...ennDiagram.jpg

At the beginning of the transition, the entire population is feeding Opportunistically. But then as the hatch begins and the insects get more numerous, some of the fish enter a transitional state where they will feed on the hatch; but if another larger food item comes along, they will take it. I have labeled this as "Tr" for the fish in transition. Some of the "Tr" fish then gradually become "locked in" to feeding only Selectively.

The way I think of it, the fish that will take a grasshopper during a PMD hatch are those still in the Opportunistic or Transition state. The Selective fish will not take the hopper.

As the hatch abates, the "Direction of Flow" reverses so that the fish return to feed opportunistically.

I have illustrated a simple horizontal representation of opportunistic to selective feeding. Actually, the situation is more complex than that because, as we know, aquatic insect emergence is several stages from nymph to emerger to adult and each one of these stages has its own transition and flow from one emergence stage to another.

That is represented by the Venn Diagram below.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...ennDiagram.jpg

By combining these two diagrams, you get a complex mental picture of how some fish become selective to the nymphs, then move to the emergers and then to the adults and then back to opportunistic feeding. They do not do so in unison, but at different rates so that you have a diverse population of fish feeding at different levels and at different stages of the emergence. In fact, some fish will never make the transition from emerger feeding to adult feeding. Rather they continue to feed on the emergers.

Now if you go back to the grasshopper illustration I gave earlier, the fish feeding on nymphs may not even see the hopper because it is feeding just above the bottom. So even if it was in a transitional feeding state from opportunistic to nymph feeding, it will not take the hopper because it never sees it.

So examples of the hatch breaker strategy of using some large fly to entice a fish feeding "selectively" is dependent on several factors and not only on whether the fish is susceptible to the hatch breaker.

Are these diagrams actually what occurs? I think so, but even if they are not completely accurate, I think they can be used by us to organize our thoughts on selectivity.

Eh well regardless if they're right or not the diagrams are at least pretty cool. In terms of the second one I'll preface this with saying I only fish dries and streamers..no nymphs..so I can't comment on that aspect, but in terms of the dries I carry a total of six patterns with me:

CDC Adams Comparadun 12-26
CDC Caddis Emerger Gray 14-22
Griffith's Gnat 18,22,26
Parachute Black Ant 18
Goddard Caddis 16
Royal Stimulator 16

Since the graph has to do with mayflys in particular why I choose to carry only that pattern (CDC Comparadun) as opposed to any other mayfly pattern is specifically because it is able to effectively pass as both as an emerger (due it's body riding low in the film) as well as a spinner (from the imprint of the CDC wing on the water)...I don't even bother attempting to imitate an adult/dun stage as I have never come across a situation where the trout key in on duns to the exclusion of emergers or duns to the exclusion of spinners...why this is the case in my opinion is that a trout making a rise to a dun has a far weaker cost-benefit ratio (ie; dun can take off at any time evading capture uneccessarily wasting the trout's energy) unlike the much more vulnerable emerger and spinner stages so I find that trout, even if they are willing to take a dun, will still always take the more vulnerable emerger and/or spinner stage when couple with a smooth accurate presentation regardless of whether or not they are keying in on duns because the cost-benefit ratio in rising to emergers/spinner vs. duns is much more in their favor....that being said since the CDC floats so smoothly on the water and the comparadun can effectively pass for both a spinner and emerger stage while technically being an exact imitation of neither that is why I choose to carry a CDC Comparadun as my only mayfly imitation in terms of stage of emergence. In terms of color this is simply my opinion but my interpretation of color is it can function positively as a "trigger" (olive for Blue-winged olive) or negatively as "off-putting" (bright pink for Blue-winged olive) but also can function simultaniously as neither a "trigger" nor "off-putting" (like in the case of the gray colored Adams) which in turn when coupled with the correct size, shape, stage of emergence, and most importantly a smooth drag-free presentation still allows me to consistently be able to take fish even though it's technically the "wrong" color so that's why I carry specifically a CDC Adams Comparadun as my only mayfly imitation from both a "stage of emergence" as well as a "color" standpoint...also keep in mind every trout that's even been taken on a fly has done so with a big metal hook jutting out of it's abdomen which the fish undoubtedly sees, particularly in a slower water setting, yet still chooses to ignore and take the offering anyway despite this blatent flaw in cosmetics...so again I personally don't place much value in color as long as it's not something completely outlandish (which a gray colored Adams is not) as I feel it has more to do with security on behalf of the angler than on behalf of the actual fish and when coupled with size, shape, stage of emergence, and most importantly a smooth drag-free presentation you still will be able to consistently take fish even though its technically the "wrong" color. Lastly also keep in mind when casting a dry to rising fish...these fish are already actively feeding on something, which is not neccassarily the case when fishing sub-surface, and on top of that actually *want* to eat, not the other way around, so if what I present to them is close enough (size, shape, stage of emergence) to whatever they're foraging on and most importantly coupled with a smooth accurate presentation even if the color is technically "wrong" you still will be able to take fish as long as that characteristic remains neutral and not something off-putting like a gray colored adams does. I certainly am not looking to convince other people to fish like I do nor pass this shit off as the gospel by any means, but this is what I do since i'm still in college and don't have a ton of money to spend fishing yet still catch with only this small amount of flies at least 80% of the fish that i'd catch with an elaborate arsenal of flies

Silver,

Good point and good graphs. I will use this example to further explain his graph.

On the Farmington, the nymphing is very good in the winter and the number can be insane. Once you hammer the fish a few times the fishing slows up due to the fish becoming selective on nymphs. Now right before the first hatches of the season the nymphing can be tough. The fish are all still there, but they are very wary of subsurface presentations.

Now, when the baetis hatch and the fish rise the dry fly fishing can be incredibly easy. The same big fish that have become tough on nymphs are easily caught on dries. Then after being caught a few tines on the surface they can become very selective in their feeding on both nymphs and dries.

Of course there are exception everywhere, but as a general rule I would say that is pretty good.

This correlates very well with those graphs. Easy nymphing-tough nymphing- easy dry fly fishing-tough dry fly fishing.

[quote author=Duck-butt Chucker link=topic=3253.msg36688#msg36688 date=1281636399]
Eh well regardless if they're right or not the diagrams are at least pretty cool. In terms of the second one I'll preface this with saying I only fish dries and streamers..no nymphs..so I can't comment on that aspect, but in terms of the dries I carry a total of six patterns with me:

CDC Adams Comparadun 12-26
CDC Caddis Emerger Gray 14-22
Griffith's Gnat 18,22,26
Parachute Black Ant 18
Goddard Caddis 16
Royal Stimulator 16

Since the graph has to do with mayflys in particular why I choose to carry only that pattern (CDC Comparadun) as opposed to any other mayfly pattern is specifically because it is able to effectively pass as both as an emerger (due it's body riding low in the film) as well as a spinner (from the imprint of the CDC wing on the water)...I don't even bother attempting to imitate an adult/dun stage as I have never come across a situation where the trout key in on duns to the exclusion of emergers or duns to the exclusion of spinners...why this is the case in my opinion is that a trout making a rise to a dun has a far weaker cost-benefit ratio (ie; dun can take off at any time evading capture uneccessarily wasting the trout's energy) unlike the much more vulnerable emerger and spinner stages so I find that trout, even if they are willing to take a dun, will still always take the more vulnerable emerger and/or spinner stage when couple with a smooth accurate presentation regardless of whether or not they are keying in on duns because the cost-benefit ratio in rising to emergers/spinner vs. duns is much more in their favor....that being said since the CDC floats so smoothly on the water and the comparadun can effectively pass for both a spinner and emerger stage while technically being an exact imitation of neither that is why I choose to carry a CDC Comparadun as my only mayfly imitation in terms of stage of emergence. In terms of color this is simply my opinion but my interpretation of color is it can function positively as a "trigger" (olive for Blue-winged olive) or negatively as "off-putting" (bright pink for Blue-winged olive) but also can function simultaniously as neither a "trigger" nor "off-putting" (like in the case of the gray colored Adams) which in turn when coupled with the correct size, shape, stage of emergence, and most importantly a smooth drag-free presentation still allows me to consistently be able to take fish even though it's technically the "wrong" color so that's why I carry specifically a CDC Adams Comparadun as my only mayfly imitation from both a "stage of emergence" as well as a "color" standpoint...also keep in mind every trout that's even been taken on a fly has done so with a big metal hook jutting out of it's abdomen which the fish undoubtedly sees, particularly in a slower water setting, yet still chooses to ignore and take the offering anyway despite this blatent flaw in cosmetics...so again I personally don't place much value in color as long as it's not something completely outlandish (which a gray colored Adams is not) as I feel it has more to do with security on behalf of the angler than on behalf of the actual fish and when coupled with size, shape, stage of emergence, and most importantly a smooth drag-free presentation you still will be able to consistently take fish even though its technically the "wrong" color. Lastly also keep in mind when casting a dry to rising fish...these fish are already actively feeding on something, which is not neccassarily the case when fishing sub-surface, and on top of that actually *want* to eat, not the other way around, so if what I present to them is close enough (size, shape, stage of emergence) to whatever they're foraging on and most importantly coupled with a smooth accurate presentation even if the color is technically "wrong" you still will be able to take fish as long as that characteristic remains neutral and not something off-putting like a gray colored adams does. I certainly am not looking to convince other people to fish like I do nor pass this shit off as the gospel by any means, but this is what I do since i'm still in college and don't have a ton of money to spend fishing yet still catch with only this small amount of flies at least 80% of the fish that i'd catch with an elaborate arsenal of flies
[/quote]Im going to the nudy bar..any takers?

Dbc,

I don't think that you need a wide variety of dries to catch trout on the surface. I would add an emerger to your list of dry flies. There are times when you need one in order to catch fish on top. This is especially when the fish get selective. Also, keep in mind that the emerger will take both the opportunistic fish as well as the more selective fish, but the standard dry might only take the fish that are feeding more selectively.

I will use the Henry's Fork of the Snake for this example. There are small rainbows that are relatively easy to catch on dries because they might be feeding on more than one stage of the emerging insect. However, throw that dry over a larger fish and you might even spook it with a dry fly. You better have the right size, silhouette and color. Even with all that you better be on your game. The same could be said for Poindexter Slough. These are in my opinion two of the toughest places with heavily pressured, selectively feeding wild trout. I know that Colorado has some tough ones as well. Davy was telling me that the fish in the Dream Stream section can hand your ass to you on any given day, especially when they get on those trico spinners.

I've at one point carried a few adams cdc loopwing emergers and took some fish on them, but I didn't like how they ride that much as they sink far too easily...I've also fished a CDC Sparkle dun before which I liked and took alot of fish on but it's just a CDC comparadun with the zelon shuck instead of the micro fibbets so I haven't notice much difference in catch rate between the two and by using the regular CDC comparadun over the sparkle it can still pass as a spinner with a half sunken body so that's why I like it from my own end. What stage of emergence do you think the fish actually interpret the CDC Comparadun majority of the time as? (ie; spinner, emerger, dun, cripple)...do you think they associate it with the stage they're specifically feeding on as it has charcteristics of each (sort of like how the griffith's gnat technically looks like "nothing" but can pass for just about anything from an ant to bettle to midge/midge cluster to even a little caddis sbout to emerge from it's casing) or do you think they see it as an emerger (or different stage) consistently but are just still willing to take emergers with spinners on the water? Also if you were me (some people are guarded about fly patterns other aren't so if you are then obviously you don't have to answer) but what mayfly emerger pattern and caddis emerger pattern would you personally go with if only allowed to carry one each?

[quote author=AaronJasper link=topic=3253.msg36694#msg36694 date=1281662371]

.... You better have the right size, silhouette and color. Even with all that you better be on your game. The same could be said for Poindexter Slough. These are in my opinion two of the toughest places with heavily pressured, selectively feeding wild trout.

[/quote]

I have fished Poindexter Slough several times. The fish can be picky, picky, picky. I fished it one time during hopper season. I went to two fly shops and they both recommended hoppers. They sold Joe's hoppers, Whitlock hoppers, Schroeder's Parachute hoppers - all of which I had with me. So I took to the creek and I found a good brown in a seam occasionally feeding on the surface. I tossed hoppers at it. I started with Schroeder's Parachute hopper which was a relatively new and effective pattern at that time. The fish came up and I got ….. a refusal. The same thing with the Whitlock and the Joe's hopper.

So I crawled upstream and away from the creek and caught several real hoppers in the grass. I looked at the coloration which can vary from location to location. Then I crept up to the stream and threw them one by one into the creek. The fish came up and …… refused the real hoppers! Why - I have no idea.

Then I got an idea. I went to my box and got out Lawson's Henry's Fork hopper. For those of you that don't know this hopper, it was designed for picky picky fish. It rides lower than most hoppers. I purposely tie mine with pale deer hair and white rubber legs so that I can color them on the stream and that is what I did. See my article on pg. 4 of our TU Chapter newsletter for my fly.

I cast the fly, the brown came up and …… took the fly without hesitation. That fly caught fish all day. The point of all this is that I believe the fish had seen all the usual hopper patterns and fell prey to one that wasn't even sold in the fly shops of Dillon, MT. I've seen this type of phenomena in places where fish are heavily fished. The flies that used to work, stop working.

Where does this fit in the concept of "selectivity"? I believe there is a phenomena of "reverse" selectivity. Some fish I believe become sensitized to certain fly patterns and select against these patterns. I think this reverse selectivity takes time to develop. It is classic aversion therapy. It is a classic stimulus response or conditioning phenomena. Can I prove this is what happens - I think I have experimental evidence that show it is likely that this is what is occurring. Read on and you decide.

Experiments have shown that fish can be positively conditioned. For example, the classic case of throwing pebbles into a fish hatchery mimicking the pellet feeding and the fish come to the disturbance of the pebbles.

There is also evidence of the opposite "aversion" conditioning in fish such as in the case of zooplankton with spines causing aversion in fish predators or the aversion of fish to certain tastes.

So experimental evidence does show that negative as well as positive conditioning does occur in fish. It is then not such a long leap of logic to suggest that negative selectivity or aversion can occur to some flies after a fish has been repeated caught by that fly.

The lesson is that in places that are heavily fished you need to be aware of negative selectivity as well as positive selectivity. In Poindexter Slough, which is small enough that you can easy cast to any lie, the solution is a change in flies and/or tactics may be in order. In my favorite river, the Madison, there is another option. That is to be good enough to fish the sections of the river that others cannot fish. That means learning how to make long pile casts or long nymphing casts so that you can reach into feeding or prime lies that others cannot. That actually is key strategy of mine on the Madison.

DBC,

You have made some assertions that are not new to me and with you having a limited experience of 3 years in fly fishing, it sounds like you are repeating what you have read and sounded reasonable to you in your experience.

I am going ask you to clarify some of your statements because whether I agree or disagree, depends on the context of these statements. Please do not think I am picking on you but rather you have made declarative statements that must be placed in context.

[quote author=Duck-butt Chucker link=topic=3253.msg36688#msg36688 date=1281636399]

comparadun can effectively pass for both a spinner and emerger stage while technically being an exact imitation of neither that is why I choose to carry a CDC Comparadun as my only mayfly imitation in terms of stage of emergence.


[/quote]

Can you post a photo or a url that show the fly you are calling a CDC Comparadun? This is key since a photo will answer a lot of my questions.


[quote author=Duck-butt Chucker link=topic=3253.msg36688#msg36688 date=1281636399]

Since the graph has to do with mayflys in particular why I choose to carry only that pattern (CDC Comparadun) as opposed to any other mayfly pattern is specifically because it is able to effectively pass as both as an emerger (due it's body riding low in the film) as well as a spinner (from the imprint of the CDC wing on the water)...I don't even bother attempting to imitate an adult/dun stage as I have never come across a situation where the trout key in on duns to the exclusion of emergers or duns to the exclusion of spinners.

[/quote]

Question - Are you saying that the Venn diagrams only apply to mayflies?

Question - Do you use floatant; if so what brand and where is it applied on this CDC Comparadun fly?

Question - When you say spinner, exactly what stage of spinner do you mean?

Question - When you say emerger, what stage of emerger do you mean?

Question - What exactly do you mean by dun?

Question - How do you know that the fish you caught on the CDC Comparadun were feeding on emergers and not the duns. Asked another way, how do you know the fish did not take the fly for a dun?


[quote author=Duck-butt Chucker link=topic=3253.msg36688#msg36688 date=1281636399]

I find that trout, even if they are willing to take a dun, will still always take the more vulnerable emerger

[/quote]

Are you saying that when a fish is willing to eat a duns, it will purposely ignore the dun and wait until an emerger comes by? What are you really saying?


[quote author=Duck-butt Chucker link=topic=3253.msg36688#msg36688 date=1281636399]

my interpretation of color is it can function positively as a "trigger" (olive for Blue-winged olive) or negatively as "off-putting" (bright pink for Blue-winged olive) but also can function simultaniously as neither a "trigger" nor "off-putting" (like in the case of the gray colored Adams) which in turn when coupled with the correct size, shape, stage of emergence, and most importantly a smooth drag-free presentation still allows me to consistently be able to take fish even though it's technically the "wrong" color so that's why I carry specifically a CDC Adams Comparadun as my only mayfly imitation from both a "stage of emergence" as well as a "color" standpoint


[/quote]

I understand what you are trying to say but WHY do you believe the "color" grey of the Adams in your words "neither a 'trigger' nor 'off-putting'"?


[quote author=Duck-butt Chucker link=topic=3253.msg36688#msg36688 date=1281636399]


also keep in mind every trout that's even been taken on a fly has done so with a big metal hook jutting out of it's abdomen which the fish undoubtedly sees, particularly in a slower water setting, yet still chooses to ignore and take the offering anyway despite this blatent flaw in cosmetics...so again I personally don't place much value in color as long as it's not something completely outlandish


[/quote]

Do you have a theory as to why fish ignores the hook. Your statement implies that all fish ignore the hook. Is that what you mean?

You link the hook and color in the above statement. Are you also saying that because a fish may ignore the hook, it also ignores color?