Czech or Polish Nymphing

Aarron.

A drag free drift can only be one when there is no influence of downstream drift pulling the fly or you causing that to happen by the manner you are fishing the fly.
I would not myself use the term friction here.

It is very possible to drift a nymph without the influence of drag provided you allow sufficient slack line in a controlled manner. As a rule here you would have a high rod position to allow for that to happen. In other words you will allow the fly or flies to track at the mercy of natural water movement.

This can be a very deadly tactic, particularly in shallow water runs.

Let me give you one of the many circumstances this was the case. I was fishing with a guide friend the Yellowstone river.

The water we were going to fish was a fast riffle run over a average depth of 1 to 2ft. My friend chose to rig with a indicator and a single nymph, cannot recall the fly. As soon as his rig landed it was immediately rushed away downstream at fast pace and one he found difficult to keep up with to maintain any sort of drag free drift.
Two things happen here, the primary one being he was focused on the indicator while trying to maintain a good drift. Which is another issue when indicators are used, the angler tends to focus on the indicator instead of how the fly is being presented, we will deal with that one at a later date.

I told Brian that in such water fish have to make a very fast decision to take a bug when they see it, and if the effects of drag move the fly too fast they may well not see it. I also know that in a shallow water zone like this fish will as a rule take a fly from the bottom to the surface. That is was very important to have your fly fish as close as possible to the natural flow rate of the river.

I rigged up with a long 6x tippet section, a soft hackle dropper with a hares ear 2 ft below at tail position. Now l do use long rods which have a definite advantage for fishing such water as more or less only mono is used, contact with the fly line on the water surface should be minimal, if at all. Long range casts are not needed either. Fish will provided you do not wade around and spook them remain very close to you. Within 20 ft or less.
Using a rod high position, more or less you can track the flies at the same pace as the current for the relative short drifts you should be fishing, and by this means you can cover the water very effectively and catch a bunch of fish which is what l did.
I could have chosen to fish wet fly techniques here as that would have been just as deadly. I also know l would have caught fish using rolled nymph and Czech style, simply it amounts to knowing how to present the chosen means of flies fished the right way and that is the crux of the matter.

Not sure if l told you how l set my standard nymph rig up. So here it is.
From the fly line by the Whitlock no knot connection, 3 ft of 20lb Amnesia, add to the 2ft of 15lb Amnesia, red or green does not matter.
Amnesia is a shooting head backing line and is oval not round and will lay straight, tapered leaders have a bad habit to twist. To the end of the 15 is tied a simple overhand knot. To that is added the additional l choose to use, which may be a straight section of 4 to 8 ft of 4/5/6 x or l may go with say 4ft of 4x and add 6x to that.

I do not use standard tapered leaders as such. For a number of reasons for nymph fishing. Dry fly and wet fly systems do differ.

Davy.

So, an overhand knot at the end of the 15 pound Amnesia. How, then, do you attach the tippet to the amnesia? With a Davy knot or clinch knot around the Amnesia above the overhand knot, with the knot preventing the tippet from slipping right off the end of the compound butt section?

[quote author=Davyfly link=topic=1060.msg10405#msg10405 date=1206717610]

I also know that in a shallow water zone like this fish will as a rule take a fly from the bottom to the surface.


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Davy,

Could you explain this a bit more....?

Davy, do you mean that in shallow water the fish will feed all over the place? I know that in shallow water I find trout to be more opportunistic. Is this what you are implying or do you have another theory on this? Do you have a different way of rigging for this? Lighter flies? Do you you ever use the sighter made from fly line backing?

Yes, guys, all l do is to tie above the stop knot my section for addition, it is a very strong connection so have no worries.
It also eliminates a step down process with decreasing diameters.
If l reduce say from 4 to 6 x l use a 3 turn surgeons, not 2 as many others do.

In the case of fishing deep water the indicator is fixed to the Amnesia, other wise at a given position on the added section as a rule 4/5/6 x depending on fly size l am using here, 5x is probably the most common l use for general nymph fishing.
The Amnesia may also be greased up when l do not use indicators and is also a good visual above and below the water surface, you can see the angle and determine fly depth and position. I have used this method for many years so can read this.


Davy knot is what l use here by the way.

Davy.

Aaron and Loren,
May be you guys misunderstood me here.

The majority of the rivers and streams l fished years ago were fast water systems which would hold fish in 6 ins to about 2ft of water, those fish would take a fly so fast it was unreal. Indicators were not used back in those days in the UK to start with, so other skills came into play to catch those fish.
Experience in many other countries around the world also taught me the same lessons that in shallow agitated riffles many fish will be found and in some cases big fish, as they may lie in a depression that is within the structure of the river bed.

Many of the rivers in the North country are typical of this, as you may well know largely this is where the origination of soft hackles and spiders came from in the 1800s.

I use no indicators other than my vision of the mono just above the water surface, it amounts to being able to present the flies and track them at the same pace as the current flow. If using more than one fly they may well take either at the surface is you hang the top dropper fly there or the anchor or tail fly, depends on how you have the system set up.
It is one of the most deadly ways to search water of this kind.

The presentation has to be upstream, and not across as by this means the flies will be swept away way to fast and you will not achieve any depth of drift for the flies . I showed some of this technique in the Wet Fly Ways DVD,



As a rule if a fish takes the fly the indication is instant due to the water speed, you have to set the hook of course. l also use same systems for slower water flows.

Davy.

Davy:

Gotcha! I, too, fish riffles a great deal since they are the "kitchen" so to speak. As you know, these are also features fish will inhabit not only on their own accord, but once pressured out of "prettier" lies. Likewise, I favor an upstream present, and a rather long leader (less surface disturbance, and I can get it off the water without worry of belly or wind if I so chose). One stream this is especially true of is PA's Spring Creek.

I have also begun to play with a visible top dropper to act as a sunk indicator that also takes very many fish. I do think that hot flies, even if they do not get taken, attract the attention of the fish toward your cast line--especially when fishing up and back in shallow water where the flies can often occupy the same water, but at different times. Hot spot effect but on a different level.

Man, I love this stuff.

Loren, how effective are the polish woven nymphs , VS the czech flys in your opion?

[quote author=skyland guide link=topic=1060.msg10427#msg10427 date=1206776138]
Loren, how effective are the polish woven nymphs , VS the czech flys in your opion?

For me, it depends on the situation. If I am rolling nymphs a la' the Polish technique then I tend to use more woven flies or simple tight yarn bodies because if I am choosing that skill it's because I am faced with fast water and a good expanse of it. My casts will be very short and I need to maximize the effort. Heavy flies simply tie faster as a weave or wrap then trying to dub over that wide diameter so I have them in heavy sizes. The tight bodies slice right through the water and I like the stark contrast I can get with a weave which I think is a fine attribute for a fast water fly.

Czech nymphs I reserve for droppers since at heavier sizes are a bitch to dub.

That said, I use neither of them a great deal in the US. When I am whitey fishing (practicing for grayling) I will use them more because these species really like to occupy that heavy water.

Loren.

As a rule when fishing this type of water longer leader sections are mandatory as short sections do not allow for what l would term as good natural free drift, the fly line weight can be a hindrance here and cause excess drag due to hang. Often l will be setting up with 12ft sometimes more.
Unless l was likely to get into very big fish l would as a rule here be using 5 or 6x diameter line, FC for sunk fly techniques, regular mono for surface or combinations of the two, depending on how l wanted the flies to be presented surface to depth.
You have many options which way you choose to go here, and it is important at times to get that right.

Secondly it is important that you present the flies, in the case when more than one is used so that they drift left to right or right to left.
in other words you do not want the flies to track in a straight line manner downstream.

Here is a good way to learn how to achieve good drift control, and at times a very effective way to catch fish. Use two of 3 dry flies, there is no difference when fishing sunk flies other than they are submerged.
I might add here also that a dry fly can be used as the top dropper with one or two flies below which could be nymph, wet or soft hackle combinations.

You may also have to mess around with the spacing you use between the flies, l may for example have my tail fly 2 to 4 ft from the middle or top dropper fly.
The top dropper to the middle dropper 18 ins to 3 ft, it depend on how the fish are responding at that time, during a caddis hatch for example when the fish will respond to flies more so in the upper levels of the water column, same also for mayfly emergence.

I pay a great deal of attention to my top dropper as that will tell you the story of how your drift is taking place, that fly can also be used to induce fish to rise and take it.
I would add here that long rods of at least 10ft are necessary, short rods have limitations in so far as how you can control fly drift. The longer the rod the further you can effect fishing this technique. I have in fact a 12ft 4/5 wt rod.

Fly line weight is also a consideration here. I prefer to use at max a 5, but will use 3 and 4wt lines as here again they allow for better animation of the fly, either when the line is held off the water or for the short length you use on the water, there is of course a max range that you will be able to fish without fly line on the water surface.

Remember here we would be using flies that are in some way representation of natural bugs, all be it at times l may well use say a Whickhams as a attractor, silver invicta on overcast days and late evening to dark fishing.

Regarding the post that skyland made here.

My honest opinion of comparisons to Polish or Czech nymphs is this. Excluding the issue of how they are tied. In both cases the deal is how you present the flies within the water column, are you looking to track all flies at low level or at different levels for the short drift that takes place.
These flies are largely representation of caddis larvae and stone fly nymphs, all be it you can also add in scuds, sowbugs and whatever else.
essentially they are flies that carry weight for this style of fishing.
Does size and color combinations make a difference at times, certainly it can, but not always.
Given my extensive experience l do not think there is any difference between the two styles that these flies are tied so far as the fish are concerned.

If l were to choose two patterns they would be representation of Ryacs and Hydro caddis larva in more natural colors.

I might add here that at times fishing with one single fly works way better than 3. Do not become stereotyped into thinking you have to use 3 flies as that is not so. In some cases it is not practical to do so either.
I have had some golden days fishing a single Hydropsyche and allowing that fly to tumble along the river bed. Takes are as a rule very positive here, the line stops. Caddis larva are hard cased and fish are used to feeling that and are not so fussed to reject the fly in a hurry as they are when they take our representations of mayfly and caddis pupa which are naturally very soft.

This reminds me of a stretch of water l used to fish on my home river the Usk in Wales. This particular shoreline was overhung with bushes and vegetation, a fast run of shallow water or about 80 yards ran close to this shoreline that Browns just loved to hang out in.

There was about 2ft of available space from the overhang to the water surface, enough to cast a single caddis larva under and allow for a good drift with a upstream presentation. I could more or less guarantee if l fished here l would nail fish with that fly. There was no way two or more flies were a option to fish this section of the river.
A heavy fly was needed to get down fast and there after tumble along the stream bed. Make no mistake that fish will not see your fly, they will , that is how they also see the naturals.

Tight lines guys.

Davy.



Davy